Our Dead Dads
The concept of Our Dead Dads was born through the daily discussions of seven men who share bonds of blood, friendship and all having lost their fathers. Nick Gaylord, the show’s host, shares his life experiences with his deceased father while exploring the complications and realities of that relationship. Life is intense, grief and loss come in many forms, and no parent-child relationship is black and white, which is why this show touches on all shades of grey.
Join Nick for candid conversations with his three brothers and three of his lifelong friends, along with other special guests who discuss their experiences with loss, grief, laughter, and moving forward. Nothing is off-limits here. Nick learned after his father's passing that he couldn't process what he was going through alone and sought the help of a therapist, who helped him to let go of his anger toward his father. Looking back, he realized just how many people are being crushed under the weight of grief, loss, and in some cases, anger.
Nick's mission through Our Dead Dads is to offer a platform for anyone who needs or wants to tell their story, to have that opportunity. He also hopes to reach many more who need to talk but don't know how to start the conversation, hopeful that by listening to these stories, they will be able to start talking with someone.
Nick has always sought to help others and to make everyone around him laugh. Along with his brothers and friends, he has frequently used humor to get through the hardest times in their lives, and hopefully, you will permit yourself to do the same. Get ready for an emotional deep dive. Nick has a lot to say and so do his guests. He's here for you and ready to help. Everyone has been through trauma, grief, and loss. Now, along with Nick and his guests, everyone will get through it together.
Nick is changing the world one damaged soul at a time. Welcome to Our Dead Dads.
Our Dead Dads
020 - Supporting a Friend Through Grief: Insights and Practical Advice with Mark Lucero
What if the advice you’ve been giving to grieving friends is doing more harm than good? Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Mark Lucero, the author of "What to Say When You Don't Know What to Say: Loving a Friend Through Grief." Mark shares profound insights and practical advice on how to truly support those navigating the heavy waters of grief. From debunking myths about grief to exploring the nuanced difference between grief and mourning, this episode provides a comprehensive guide to understanding and addressing the emotions tied to loss.
Our discussion highlights the often-overlooked importance of allowing grief to unfold naturally and without societal pressure. We talk about the transformative power of embracing grief, and how facing these difficult emotions head-on can foster resilience and empathy. You'll hear personal anecdotes that underline the therapeutic benefits of addressing old traumas, and how societal attitudes towards mental health and therapy are slowly evolving. This episode is a call to action for creating a supportive community where open dialogue about grief, trauma, and loss can flourish.
Wrapping up on a lighter note, we present a fun segment featuring random questions that reveal the personal side of our guest. From Mark’s love for environmental philanthropy to his collection of vinyl records and his travel adventures, this part of the episode offers a delightful glimpse into his life beyond his professional insights. Whether you're looking for guidance on supporting a grieving friend or simply want to hear an engaging conversation, this episode promises to leave you with valuable takeaways and a renewed perspective on dealing with loss. Tune in and join our journey toward understanding and healing.
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Hello and welcome to Our Dead Dads, the podcast where we normalize talking about all kinds of grief, trauma, loss and moving forward. I'm your host, my name is Nick Gaylord, and if this is your first time joining me, welcome to the show, and if you're a regular listener, welcome back. For everyone listening, thank you so much for your support. The best way that you can support the show is to continue listening, send in your feedback on the show's Facebook and Instagram pages and, most importantly, please spread the word about the show. Everybody deals with grief. We are all in this together and the best thing that any of us can do is to support each other through that grief. If you haven't done so already, please get over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Give us a five-star rating, because those ratings really do help the show to climb the charts, and I promise you we're climbing, we're growing and I love it, and I can't thank you all enough. This cannot happen without you and I'm so grateful for all of you. I really hope that you enjoyed last week's conversation with Sean Christopher.
Speaker 1:This week is episode 20. And it's time to talk to someone you've heard me mention a few times already. It's Mark Lucero, author of what to Say when you Don't Know what to Say. Loving a Friend Through Grief. My wife is actually the one who first noticed Mark on Facebook and he came into our worlds because we have mutual friends together from Texas. As soon as I saw that, I reached out to our friends John and Glenn, and asked if they would mind making the introduction. They were so happy to and before we knew it, mark and I were talking up a storm. Mark will cover many sections of the book, but only in enough detail to leave you wanting more, because if you want more, you're going to have to go online and buy the book, because this is not a complete spoiler episode. If you go to the show notes of this episode, you will be able to find the link to purchase this book. It's not a big book. It's only about 110 pages. It's a very easy read. But besides being an easy read, it's impossible to measure the value of the information in this book. Also, if you go to OurDeadDadscom and select the Recommended tab and then Books under that, you'll also find the same link to purchase this book.
Speaker 1:Listen to this interview and you'll find out why phrases like they're in a better place are possibly some of the worst things that you can say to somebody who just lost a loved one. And this is only one piece of helpful information that you'll get from this interview. Before we get started, I would like to thank you again for listening to the show, for your feedback and for engaging with the show. Please don't forget to follow the show's social media pages on Facebook, instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1:As you know, my goal is to normalize talking about all types of grief, loss and trauma, which are topics that are not easy for most of us to talk about, but they're also topics that everybody should be discussing more Not only discussing them, but not feeling like they're taboo topics. Time may not heal all wounds, but keeping everything bottled up inside doesn't heal any of them. Together, we are building a community for others to have a safe space to talk about their stories and their feelings, and for anyone who may not yet be ready to talk, just to listen to others and know that no one is alone in this path. That is why I say we are a community and I'm so happy to have you as part of it in this path. That is why I say we are a community and I'm so happy to have you as part of it. If you have a story of grief and loss to share and might want to be considered as a future guest of Our Dead Dads, go to OurDeadDadscom. Go to the contact us link and then select be a guest, fill out the form, send it in and you just might be able to tell your story and carry on this mission of helping ourselves and so many others. That said, it is now time to start the show and turn the spotlight over to Mark Lucero, so please enjoy this episode and stick around for the end when I will tell you about next week's episode.
Speaker 1:Our Dead Dads podcast is sponsored by Kim Gaylord Travel. If you can dream up the vacation whether a getaway for you and your other half, a family trip or a trip for a large group she will help you plan it. If you've never used, or even thought about using a travel agent for your trips, you really should. Kim will help you plan everything the flights, hotels, transportation, excursions, all the places to visit and all the sites to see. You'll get a detailed itinerary of everything and if anything goes wrong during your trip, you have someone to contact. Whether you're looking for a customized European vacation, a relaxing stay at an all-inclusive resort, an Alaskan adventure, a Caribbean cruise? Kim will work with you to make sure you have a seamless travel experience. Contact her today and plan your next trip with a peace of mind that only working with a travel agent can offer. And, as a special bonus for our listeners, mention Our Dead Dads podcast for a 10% discount on planning fees. You can find Kim Gaylord Travel on Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn, or email Kim directly. Her email address is kim at kimgaylordtravelcom.
Speaker 1:Our Dead Dads podcast is sponsored by Dotted Avenue Creative Studio.
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Speaker 2:I'm not the greatest with technology.
Speaker 1:I see that now you're on mute.
Speaker 2:How about now?
Speaker 1:Can you say I can hear you now. Okay, I think we're there. Nice Good job. How are you, sir?
Speaker 2:I'm doing all right. Good Technology has a way of kind of sending me over the edge. Oh, that's okay, I'm not a high-tech person. My wife is super high-tech and I go zero to 60. The world has ended if something doesn't work on technology, nice.
Speaker 1:Technology has played a little bit of a role in a few calls that I've had. There was one call that we just couldn't get the Zoom call started. There was another call just a few months ago where I had an internet outage like 10 minutes before the interview started. Oh perfect, yeah, where I had an internet outage like 10 minutes before the interview started. Yeah, perfect timing. But now we're good and I'm connected, you're connected. We can hear each other. You've got your water, I've got mine. Yes, sir, the book was incredible.
Speaker 2:Oh good, let's just start there.
Speaker 1:I know that we're going to dive into a lot of conversation about this and give everybody a big glimpse of this, but the book was amazing.
Speaker 2:Right and I'm really happy that you connected with it. I'm getting a really good response from people who've read it. As you should, really gratifying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is your first book, right? It's my first book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was a Herculean effort. It took me three years to write it. Yeah, and it was a Herculean effort. It took me three years to write it.
Speaker 1:It's not a big book. I do remember you saying that the first time that we spoke, that it took you a while.
Speaker 2:It took me a while and in the last six months, big push to get it over the finish line and a lot of back and forth on edits, and I'm really pleased with the result. I had a lot of friends and colleagues look at it and give me feedback and it really improved the book greatly. So yeah, I think it's a good book.
Speaker 1:I think it's an amazing book. I think it's a very necessary book. I think this is a book that I planned. I've actually already mentioned the book in a couple of interviews, and these are interviews that have been recorded but not yet released at this point, at this point. So when they do air, when the episodes do drop, then I hope that everybody takes me seriously when I say that this is a book that seriously.
Speaker 1:I've talked about how this podcast really is for everybody, because grief is something that affects all of us, and the issues that you touch on in the book, the ways to handle them, the things to do, the things not to do there are things that really everybody needs to know about, because we all make the same mistakes and obviously there's a million books out there, there's a million experts and therapists and this, that and the third, and there's no singular best answer or right answer to say that this is right, this should be considered gospel and everything else is bullshit.
Speaker 1:That's not the case. But what I can say is this book, there are certain things that you could say to somebody based on some of the recommendations, and they still might not respond well to them, because, again, the human species is not a science. It's not an exact science and you don't know exactly how somebody will or will not respond, but I think that this is a very strong start in the right direction and I'm so glad that John and Glenn got us connected, that we had a chance to have a previous conversation and that I read the book, because it really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am too. Every one of us is going to be in the situation where we know somebody who needs support in grief. We're all going to face them. So I agree with you. I think everyone should read the book. It's information that's valuable to everybody.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more and, that being said, this isn't my book. I'm not the star of this show. That spotlight is going on you, and so I am not going to sit here and talk about the entire book. I really want you to get into this, and I know that you're not going to give the recap of every single page, nor should you, because the goal everybody who's listening is you need to go buy the book and, yes, the Amazon link will be attached to the episode notes. It is a 100% must read. But, mark, I'm going to let you talk about this and I'm going to let you tell whatever you want to tell. You can keep in, you can hold back whatever you don't want to reveal, because I really do hope that everybody goes and gets this book and gives it a serious read. Don't just skim through it. Read it and absorb it, because there really is valuable information in here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you sort of why I wrote the book. It grew out of my counseling practice. What I hear from people over and over again when I meet with family or friends of somebody who's grieving, it's the same thing that we all say. You know, when we see somebody who's in grief, I just don't know what to say to them. Right, it's just like it's autopilot. Everybody says that and you know, what I discovered is out in the grief literature, and it's massive.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of books written about grief and there's a lot of books written about how to navigate grief. If you're if a loss, there's a great deal of wonderful books out there to help you through that. But what there isn't a lot of is the friend who's sitting beside the person who's grieving. How can I be most helpful? Where is my best chance of being a good support for my friend and how do I create ideal conditions for them to heal, to move through this loss in a good way and to feel supported? That's kind of the why of the book. I think there's a great need out there for this. Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:So it took you. You said you kind of wrote this over three years. Yeah, what were the challenges that you faced? The biggest challenges? Aside from the editors and publisher and all that like with the actual content of the book, with the writing process, what presented the most challenges?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. When I started the book, I think somewhere around three years ago, I wrote every day for three months, every single day. I probably wrote 20,000 words and I had the book I'm going to say 75% done after three months, right? So why did it take me three years to finish this book? A lot of reasons. The bulk of the writing came fairly easy. I had a pretty good outline and I knew pretty much what I wanted to say.
Speaker 2:But what happened is, about a year into the project, I realized that if I write a book, it's going to bring a lot of attention on me, and so, first of all, I'm an introvert and also I grew up in an environment, in a home, where the safest thing you could do was be invisible. It was a little bit dangerous to be visible and to be seen, so I developed really good habits over time of kind of hiding myself. So when I started realizing that, wow, if I write this book, you know Nick Gaylord is going to call me and want me to be on a podcast and people are going to be looking at me I got scared and so I shelved the book for a year and I basically just didn't do anything for a year and then I started working with my therapist, you know, started working on some of my issues and what my fears are and which ones are irrational, which one should I be paying attention to, and really got a lot of good help that way with my own therapist, and then came back to the project again about a year ago and set in earnest to get it finished and then in the last six months that really has been the process of editing and taking in feedback. I'm probably like most writers.
Speaker 2:I really don't like to be edited. You know my words are perfect the first time out of the gate, so why bother with editing? Well, it really was important and I got fantastic feedback and help from friends and colleagues and I had a very good editor also and my wife Sandy is a fantastic editor and very helpful with the whole development process and completion of the book. So the last six months have been quite a ride getting it to the finish line and I'm really proud of it. I am. It's a good book and I think it's important material. There's a lot of content in there that people need to know about.
Speaker 1:Definitely so. During the process of writing this book, you, the helper, were actually in therapy as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, working with my own therapist, and you know I've had a therapist for a long time. I recommend it to everyone. You know we all need a little help.
Speaker 1:I definitely believe that everybody needs to be in therapy at one time or another in their lives, maybe multiple times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really helpful, so absolutely Big fan of seeking help.
Speaker 1:So what was? Are you able to talk a little bit about what it was that you and your therapist talked about, specifically regarding writing this book and your mental roadblocks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was mainly just recognizing that old tapes and old memories and layers of trauma and learning to be invisible is not. It served me well then. You know it was a very adaptive, kept me safe when I was small, but continuing to employ that strategy is not serving me well now, and so it was just basically learning how to realize that the threat is no longer real, that it's imagined and it's remembered. And it was real. But now it isn't necessary for me to be frightened by being seen, which the book will do. I'll tell you I still am frightened. I'm going to be doing a couple of presentations in the library system talking about my book, and public speaking is not my thing. It terrifies me. But I'm really passionate about this material and I really want people to know about it. So I've got to do my own work, get past myself and step into that space.
Speaker 1:Aside from public speaking, what scares you the most about this?
Speaker 2:One thing that I've been afraid of in the process of writing the book is that I'll write something patently ridiculous. I don't know if you've read Ben Franklin's autobiography, but he was a printer printing press operator. One of his great fears was what he called errata, which is basically a typo that he put something out in print, and so it's kind of one of my fears that I would write something just so stupid and not catch it and it would get out and be published and be read by everyone and I'd be like, oh my gosh, mark, what were you thinking? So those fears kind of ran around in my brain a little bit too.
Speaker 1:Basically, you're worried about potentially putting out a book of 99.95% great material and having one little thing that's going to become the focus of the book rather than the book itself.
Speaker 2:Exactly right, it's the negative bias in our brains. We have nine good experiences in a day and one bad one. What do we remember?
Speaker 1:Exactly. You remember the bad one because the good one. Everything's supposed to be good. Bosses don't recognize the good things that you do at your job. They focus on the one bad because all the good things, it's your job. You're supposed to do those things. You're not supposed to be doing them for additional recognition. And again, that's just working in the corporate world for the last almost 30 years. Let's get into the book a little bit. Let's talk about what you can. Again, we don't have to cover every little bit, but just starting early on in the process, like you did with the book. What do you think is really valuable information for someone to take away from this? Besides everything? What specifically I mean, if we're just having a conversation about the book somebody hasn't read the book yet, but you're giving a speech on the book how would you present this to the people that are listening to you speak?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that what I would probably start with is what I might call the golden rule. If you're sitting beside somebody who's grieving, there's a golden rule that I would want everybody to think about first, like whatever you're going to say to your friend or whatever you're going to do to help them, always follow this rule. And that is what I'm about to say, encouraging them to move toward their grief or away from their grief. You know, because we, culturally, we're really avoidant of the topic of grief, of the topic of death and even strong emotions. We tend to just take a wide berth and, you know, avoid that stuff. But when you're trying to provide care and support for somebody who's grieving, what you have to do, what I do as a grief counselor is I gently encourage them to move toward their grief. It was Helen Keller who said the only way to the other side is through right, and that's what we have to do with grief. We have to set an intention to move directly toward it and through the center of it and out the other side, which is a really painful process. So I'm asking people to do something that is going to be painful. One thing I'll often say in a counseling setting is doing grief, for what we're about to do will hurt, but it won't hurt you, right? In fact, it'll heal you. So the golden rule is what I'm about to do or say, inviting my friend to move toward their grief or away from their grief.
Speaker 2:Things that would be considered moving away from their grief are saying something like just don't think about it, take the pictures down. They're only making you sad, stay busy Things that many of us have said to people who are grieving. But what that does is it signals to them that they should avoid their grief, which is the last thing they should do. What we're wanting them to do is just, very slowly and very intentionally, move toward their grief and also giving them permission sometimes to suspend from that work, because we can't grieve all the time. All of the symptoms of grief are almost identical to the symptoms of depression, but the symptoms of grief are purposeful. They are intended to slow you down because when you've suffered a profound loss, it's going to be a long convalescence, and our bodies know that, our hearts know that, our minds know that. So it's a long process and the symptoms are designed to slow you down. So we're going to give people permission sometimes to step back and say, okay, not today I'm going to a movie. Today I'm going to do something else entirely.
Speaker 1:But the work is to set an intention, to move toward your grief through the center of it and out the other side. What is the difference between grief and mourning Great?
Speaker 2:question. Those words are used interchangeably, often like they mean the same thing.
Speaker 2:It's similar to grief and depression. Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely critical. I really love that you asked the question. So grief is an experience and mourning is an action. Okay, so, and then you might think of it this way too Grief is symptoms and mourning is the treatment.
Speaker 2:So, so grief is the internal experience that I have in response to a loss, and so that might be the thoughts that I'm thinking, the emotions that I'm having. There's a physical dimension to grief, so I might be having aches and pains or nausea. There's lethargy. Our bodies feel like they're made of cement, all these physical symptoms. So grief happens inside of me and it's invisible. If you're in grief right now and I'm looking at you, I can't see it. I can't see that you're grieving. But as soon as, for example, a tear comes down your cheek, then that's an outward expression of your grief, which is what we call mourning. So mourning is taking that internal experience of loss that you're having and taking it outward and making it visible, and mourning is how we heal. Mourning is the process. What I do is I teach people how to creatively and actively mourn their grief, and by doing that's how they heal the wound in their heart.
Speaker 1:And what happens when that grief stays unmourned?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when people don't actively mourn, the grief then just lives inside of you, right?
Speaker 2:It sets up camp and lives inside of you. Culturally, what I think we're experiencing is sort of an epidemic of what's called carried grief, and that is grief that has not been adequately mourned. What it means is all these symptoms of grief that look just like depression. Think of it like every significant loss in your life is like a bowling ball and you stick it in a pillowcase and you throw it over your shoulder and then you have another loss, not just deaths children leaving the home, or you lose a job, or you lose a friendship or a pet dies. All of these significant losses are another bowling ball in the bag and pretty soon we're slumped over and hunched over and so encumbered by our grief that we're all walking around like depressed people with all the symptoms of depression, with their symptoms of grief. So that's called carried grief and I see it everywhere, and it's partly because culturally we don't know how to support people through the process of healing and so many people are walking around with a long history of carried grief.
Speaker 1:What are some of the implications of carried grief for individuals and for society?
Speaker 2:Well, what it does is it tamps your sort of spark for life. It results in a person living kind of a dulled existence. When we're in grief, after we've been injured by loss, we sort of build a metal cage around our heart and it does a wonderful job of preventing us from further injury. But it also eliminates the possibility of that outward connection with other people. So the implications of carry grief are really profound. People are living a closed-hearted existence because they haven't learned how to dismantle that metal cage around their heart. They're doing a great job of protecting them, but it's also prevents them from living open heartedly.
Speaker 1:What are some of the myths and misconceptions about grief?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of them, so I guess the first one I would bring up is people often like to say that time heals all wounds. Yeah, that's bullshit. It is. It really is. Time really does nothing to heal. Well, it does take time. We need time to make good use of so that healing can happen. But it really what really matters is how you make use of that time, by which I mean, are you actively mourning during that time? And if you're doing that, then time is your ally in healing. But time alone is not sufficient for healing. So time heals all wounds. That's one of the things that people often say. That's kind of a myth. Another thing culturally and this is often for men is that if you're sort of stoic, you're not showing any emotion, then you're doing well with your loss.
Speaker 1:You're being a big, strong man.
Speaker 2:You're being tough, yeah yeah, you're being tough, you know, not breaking down, not crying, that that means, oh, you must be doing well. Really the opposite is true. Loss, grief, it's an injury to our hearts and so naturally we want to give expression to that injury. And then there's the. The corollary to that too is that that sometimes people will say, well, wow, he's just falling apart, he's just not handling this well at all. You know, I'm much more worried about the person who's shown no emotion about their loss than somebody who's really kind of being blown away by it. That, to me, sort of rings more true with profound losses.
Speaker 2:Another misconception that we've kind of touched on already is that grief and mourning are the same thing. People use those words as though they're the same thing. They're not. What else, oh, grief?
Speaker 2:People often believe that grief moves through linear stages, you know, like a straight line process. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' famous process of denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. People have mistakenly applied that to the grieving process when she wrote that she was talking about the dying process, and you know they're very different things. But even later she kind of redacted that and said you know, it's not appropriate to apply this to the grieving process. But the point is that moving through loss is not a straight line. I mean, it is messy, it is circular, it zigs and zags.
Speaker 2:The model that I like to use to think about sort of what grief looks like visually is it's an upward, ascending spiral, right?
Speaker 2:So when you experience a profound loss, imagine you fell through a hole in the ground into a dark cave and you're kind of knocked about, you're disoriented, you're in a dark place, and when you begin to actively mourn your loss, you begin to move very slowly upward, but not in a straight line upward. You go in this spiral upward because grief is recursive. We go over the same ground over and over again. We replay the same memories and the same images and the same regrets. And if you're actively mourning, even though it feels like you're covering the same territory, you're actually moving upward very slowly in that spiral. So I like that much better as a model for what integration of loss should look like. It should be a very slowly ascending spiral, not a straight line. It really doesn't work that way and there's a lot of expectation that people have sometimes when they come in to see a grief counselor, that you'll help them through the five steps and then you're done, and that just isn't how it works.
Speaker 1:It is not at all how it works. And as time goes on, as we progress or sometimes digress in the society, people want instant gratification. They want a quick fix. I don't have time to deal with this. I don't have time to grieve. I don't have time to be stuck in the past. I don't have time is something that way too many people say, not just about grief, about almost everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually have a magic wand on the table in my counseling office because that's really what people want. Can't you just make this end end? Can't you just wave a magic wand and they can be through this? You know, I'll pick it up and say sure, we can do that. Why didn't you ask? You know? Because that's yeah, and of course it just doesn't work that way. We get a little chuckle. But yeah, it would be nice. You know it's a painful process and it would be nice to be able to somehow leapfrog over it. But there's no shortcuts, shortcuts. There's no way to rush the process. Like they say, you can't push a river. Grief is the same way. You really can't rush it. Everybody moves through their loss at their own pace and that should be respected. When you're supporting somebody, you really should respect that. Their pace is theirs, not yours. Not what you need them to be doing, but what they're doing is most important.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that people want those who are grieving to move through it quickly? Is it because they're uncomfortable viewing the grief that somebody else is experiencing?
Speaker 2:I think that's a big part of it, yeah, and also it's compassion for their friend. They want this suffering to end. It's hard to watch somebody you love in pain, but I do think there's quite a lot of discomfort culturally around pain, around sorrow. We would like people to move quickly through that process. There's a Bible verse that says blessed are those who grieve and I've often thought for our culture it should say blessed are those who grieve. Quickly Get on with it, Get over it. People will say that you need to move on. You need to get on with your life. Gosh, it's been three months. Come on. You're mired in your grief. It's a very slow process. It can be years to fully integrate a profound loss.
Speaker 1:It is a slow process. I think that whenever somebody makes a comment like that which I get why they're going to make those comments? Because, again, they don't want to be uncomfortable, they don't want to see their friends uncomfortable. They don't want to be uncomfortable when they're around their friends. So they will say things to try to speed the process along. They will say things like it's been three months, it's been a month, it's been six months, it's been whatever.
Speaker 1:But I think one thing that the test of time has shown for everybody is you can't dictate what somebody else's grief is going to look like when any person who is with a friend says it's been three months, what's going on? What's taking so long? Why are you still stuck in this? But then when they deal with it, it's almost like an aha moment or maybe like a holy shit moment of oh, this is what they're dealing with Wow.
Speaker 1:And then maybe afterwards some people have a moment of wow, I was really an asshole to that person, because here I was rushing them or trying to rush them through their grief, and now I'm stuck in the middle of it and I'm realizing there is no quick fix. I can't get over this quickly. I can't deal with this quickly.
Speaker 2:It's one of the sort of transformation points too for many people. When they do the work, see a grief counselor and move intentionally through their grief experience, they're often transformed by that realization. They discover a deeper well of compassion for other people who are grieving. You know that they hadn't thought about before until they'd gone through it themselves. So it makes them better people, you know, makes them realize that this is a major injury. This is a serious injury to my heart and should be taken seriously.
Speaker 1:And I do believe it does make us better people. Not necessarily experiencing grief, but almost experiencing somebody else's grief makes us better people. I guess it depends on how we decide to process it Whether you're navigating something that you're going through or if you're navigating something that somebody else is going through. Every decision that you make is a choice. All of the items that you've pointed out in the book. They're choices that people can make to say to other people or not say. I mean the same way, it's a choice to either read the book or not read the book. As far as becoming a better person goes, yeah, I think experiencing somebody else's grief with them and being there and showing that you're willing to go through it with them can definitely make somebody a better person and at the same time, I guess it could bring out somebody's true colors and see that they're maybe not the person that is needed to navigate grief with.
Speaker 1:Some people, and I'm not saying it's because somebody is a bad person, but in the time of grief, the person who's dealing with the grief needs people who are stronger or strong enough around them. Not necessarily stronger, because at that point the person who's going through the grief has to deal with a lot of strength as well. But I think grief can definitely show somebody's true colors. It can show how strong of a person you can be, not just for yourself but for another person and show a lot of you know it can show that you can make the right decisions and you can make the wrong decisions yeah, yeah, we, we're always learning.
Speaker 2:Being in grief yourself can really turn some lights on for you about what sort of person you are, what sort of person you wish to become. I have a belief that suffering is well. Let me say it this way there is no path to wisdom that doesn't go through suffering. My belief is that the doorway to wisdom always goes through suffering, and so we have to learn, as human beings, how to make use of that suffering Instead of running from it or saying, oh, it's my enemy. You know, any kind of suffering is bad. It's not. It's what actually makes us stronger.
Speaker 2:You think about a bird trying to hatch itself out of an egg. You know it's struggling and it's fighting hard against this cage around it. If you go and break that egg open and help the bird, it'll die. That bird needs to develop the strength while it's in the egg, fighting its way out, so that later it can fly, and so we have to make use of our suffering. You know, we have to realize that it's not our enemy, and there are some forms of suffering that are not.
Speaker 2:How do I want to say this? There's necessary pain. Grief is necessary pain. Right, because it's a natural response to loss. It's not a disease. When you're experiencing grief, it's because you're a human being who has the ability to connect to other people and to feel love and to give love, and when we lose that, when we're separated from that connection, we naturally have a grief response. So that's a necessary form of pain that we have to endure. And there's pain in the world and there's forms of suffering that are not necessary. Childhood cancer, children suffering these things aren't necessary pain. But much of the pain we experience in our lives is instructive and can make us better people if we can learn how to make use of our suffering.
Speaker 1:Do you think we can figure out how to make use of suffering?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. I mean, not everybody's capable of grieving. Almost everyone is, but sociopaths don't grieve right. They don't have the ability to form those loving bonds and connections, so therefore, when they encounter loss, they don't have the same sort of grief experience. So not everyone's able to grieve, maybe not everyone's able to make use of their suffering. But I do think that's what maturing and becoming the best humans that we can be. It entails learning how to make use of suffering, because it's unavoidable. It's woven through the very tapestry of life. You're not going to get through this without some kind of pain or suffering or loss, and so we can be instructed by it, we can grow because of it. I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:I agree. In your book you talked about six needs of every mourner. Yes, Would you like to go over that a little bit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can talk about that. So that I want to say that the six needs of the mourner is not material, original. To me these six needs come from Dr Alan Wolfelt's book Understanding your Grief and, by the way, anything you can find of his to read, read it. He's brilliant, a great teacher and a great writer. So he talks about what are the six needs. You know, if my friend is grieving, let's get specific. What do they need, right? So the first thing that every person who's grieving needs is to acknowledge the reality of loss. You know it sounds very simple but it gets skipped over. Often they don't feel acknowledged, they don't feel seen, but they have to find a way, not just upstairs in their brain, to acknowledge. Of course I was at the funeral, I know they died, but acknowledgement and integration of that reality is the movement from the head knowledge down into your heart where over time you fully integrate the reality of what's happened, so that every grieving person has the need to do that and the right to do that, to acknowledge the reality of the loss. The second need is to feel the pain. You know to feel every emotion. Grief brings with it such a wide range of emotions, you know, we can in one moment be feeling rage maybe rage at the medical community or rage at God for allowing this person to die and then, almost at the very same time, you know, just feeling this crushing sorrow. But grieving people have the need to feel those emotions and to be given permission and wide space to feel whatever emotion arises. So that's the second need.
Speaker 2:The third is to remember the person who died. When someone we love dies, our relationship with that person doesn't end. We now have to transform the relationship that used to be a relationship of, you know, physical presence, and now we use memory as sort of the conduit for continuing that relationship. So they have a need to remember, and that is seen in the form of storytelling. They have a need to talk about the person, just to hear their name spoken, and so that's one of the most generous things you can do for somebody who's grieving is invite them to talk about the person. Tell me stories, let's reminisce, let's talk about, you know, uncle Bob and what he meant to you and all those things. So the need to remember the person who has died is very important.
Speaker 2:The fourth need is to develop a new self identity, and so what happens like and this often happens, like when a spouse dies maybe that person paid all the bills in the house or mowed the lawn or did the cooking, whatever their role was in the house. Now, all of a sudden, here I am being faced with having to make a major adjustment because I never had to do these things before, and so the developing a new self-identity is basically asking the question who am I now in the world, now that this person has died? Who am I as a result of their death, and who am I going to become? And all of these needs are long-term things that happen over time search for meaning, to understand the why of what has happened, to ask the why questions, to integrate this reality into their scheme of things, into their sense of what makes the world make sense. And so they ask a lot of hard questions. You know, why did they die in this way? Why did they die now? And the why questions. Most of the time they don't come with satisfying answers. But the process of asking those why questions is the search for meaning, is the search to understand.
Speaker 2:Humans are meaning makers. We create story, we make meaning out of everything that happens in our lives. We create schematics about how the world's supposed to work. So grief is the same. People who are grieving have a need to make meaning out of this and to search for understanding about what's happened. And then the sixth need is that every grieving person has a need to be supported over a long period of time. So friends and family of somebody in grief it's really important that they recognize this is a long convalescence, this is a long haul. The healing is not going to happen quickly. It'd be so nice if it could, but it just doesn't work that way. So they have a need to be supported over a very long period of time.
Speaker 1:Those are six very important points to think about when somebody is experiencing a loss. You have a friend who just lost a friend, or a sibling or a spouse. Not that we're talking about right or wrong, but what are some of the better things to say to somebody?
Speaker 2:Yeah, think again about that golden rule, anything that you say to them that invites them to move toward this loss, to open up toward what's happened, and so those can include lots of things. It's mostly getting curious, activating your curiosity and, alongside of compassion, right, we don't need morbid curiosity, we don't need to be asked about the gory details of how they died, but you need to be curious about what this is like for you in your grief. So any question like, what is it like for you to have lost your wife? What is day-to-day life for you like now? How has it changed? Those kinds of sort of compassionate inquiries are really helpful to people. It signals to them that you see them, that you're aware of the loss. They're not invisible in their grief, you know. I think asking specific questions, saying the name of the person who has died, inviting them to reminisce, tell stories those are all really helpful things to do.
Speaker 1:When a person passes, whether it's a family member, a coworker that person's name and likeness and just very being frequently seem to become the elephant in the room. Oh yeah, why? Whether it's a family member or coworker, why is everybody just so afraid to bring up that person's name or mention them in conversation?
Speaker 2:Mostly people are afraid that they're going to make the situation worse. If my friend has lost their spouse and I walk up and ask them about her, maybe it's going to make them feel more sad, or maybe they've forgotten it and I'll remind them of the loss. So people are really avoidant of the topic, partly because I think they're afraid that they'll make things worse. But the other reason is that it's sort of instilled into us culturally. We're pretty avoidant and I would even say phobic of grief and death, and that gets built into us pretty early. The thing to do is really just kind of avert your eyes and look away, pretend it's not there, which really does not serve well at all for people in grief. They need to be seen. But I think it's a combination of those two things the concern that if I say something I'll make them feel worse. And then the other thing is the cultural piece of gosh better just to avoid this topic. At least that's the thought. That's the thought. Yeah, it's a mistaken approach, but it gets employed over and over again.
Speaker 1:And, believe me, I can understand how somebody might think that not bringing up a person that has just passed is the better idea. It isn't, because it's almost like you're ignoring the fact that they ever existed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the elephant in the room is so painful. I tell a story in my book of a young woman I worked with through the loss of her son. Her 12-year-old son had brain cancer and he died. And the following Mother's Day she was in a large gathering of friends and family and nobody mentioned his name, nobody spoke about the fact that he wasn't there and she was feeling so desperately alone and sad. And she was feeling so desperately alone and sad and then this little boy walks up to her and he says Bennett died. I miss him. And immediately the tears came and of course it brought her into an encounter with her grief. But that's the work we have to encounter our loss. But it was such a healing moment for her because the little child recognized hey, why doesn't anybody say anything about this? And it was such a comfort, climbed up in her lap and she was able to hold him and be comforted by the fact that she was acknowledged, her grief was acknowledged.
Speaker 1:It's amazing how kids don't know why nobody's talking about the child that passed, but they do know that nobody is talking about it. They don't know the why, but they do know the what. And kids have a really uncanny knack for being able to be brutally honest and sometimes to introduce the fix of, introduce a possible solution to the problem and in this case the problem. And I do remember that story and that was one I mean there were so many really touching stories in the book that you went through but that was one that really stuck with me and I really liked that. This kid didn't care. This kid saw the boy's mom and he missed his friend and nobody was talking about him, but he didn't care, he just went right up to the mom.
Speaker 2:And he said Ben, it's gone, I miss him. It's so obvious, it's just so plainly obvious to this little boy and it's obvious to us too. We just get scared, we just get afraid that we're going to do harm, but it's really important to acknowledge the loss over and over again. Grievers need to be seen. They need to know that we're aware of their suffering.
Speaker 1:Fear is a very powerful emotion. You talked about this in the very beginning. Fear is what turned a three-month project into a three-year project for you.
Speaker 2:Exactly, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's not something that you should run away from and I'm not saying that you did, but you admitted that you tried to run away from it. You didn't want to face it head on. You were 75% done with your book and you said, nope, hit the brakes.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah and fear is something that it doesn't just have to be, and you weren't even mourning anything. You were working on something that was going to become an incredible piece of work, and there was nothing to mourn in this case, and yet fear still overtook you, and it's just a huge example of how fear can control so many things that we do. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:There's an expression that I love says feel the fear and do it anyway, and that's a really great rule for almost every situation. Except if you're going into a cave and there's a bear in there, right. If there's an actual threat, right. But most of the time our fears are non-rational. But we do have to face our fears. I think one of the best ways to get to the end of a life with fewer regrets is to lean into the things that scare you and do them. Fear is a huge component in grieving, especially in spousal loss. The sense of security and safety in the world when you lose a spouse is really undermined. So people spend a great deal of time frightened of the world now. People spend a great deal of time frightened of the world now. Cs Lewis said that I never knew that grief felt so much like fear. So it's a major component of navigating loss. Is this sense of being frightened by the way the world has changed, the way I have been altered by this loss?
Speaker 1:As I was reading your book. Of course, something that I could not help but think of is the very reason why I'm here doing a podcast, thinking about my dad and for years just did not have a good relationship with him for most of my life. I wouldn't say it wasn't a good relationship. It was a very complicated relationship. That's a word that I've used many times on this show. I had an interview with my three brothers. They acknowledged a lot of complications that they all individually experienced and, yes, again, there were obviously good things. We talked about the good, we talked about the bad.
Speaker 1:When it came time for the funeral after he died, I didn't really know what to feel at that point. The biggest thing that I was feeling initially and for quite a while after was relief, and on two levels relief that he was no longer physically suffering because he was in a lot of pain. He had a lot of things wrong with him for a long time. Yes, most of them were self-inflicted because he just couldn't be bothered taking care of himself. But regardless, I was relieved that he wasn't suffering anymore, because he really was suffering physically. I was also relieved that it was just over, that everything that he put me and my siblings and his ex-wives and almost everybody that he ever encountered. I was relieved that was over. So that was kind of the feelings that I embraced at that time, even during the funeral, for a few months afterwards, yeah, I continued to be relieved. Yes, we remembered him, but at a certain point I didn't want to keep thinking about him.
Speaker 1:Like a few months in, I was done. I got to a point where I was really starting to get frustrated with how much he was creeping into my mind and I didn't really know why. All I knew is that it was annoying me. That was when I started to get angry. I started to get irritated, began to snap at different times, snapping at my wife, snapping at other people, for really no good reason. They didn't do anything wrong, but that's when I ended up finding a therapist. And I know that you and I were not part of each other's worlds three years ago, even though we do have mutual friends, who are wonderful people, by the way. And again, I'm so glad that I can't remember if it was John or Glenn that put the original message up, but whichever one of them, I think it was John. Whichever one of them it was, I'm so grateful that they put that bridge there and they got us connected. Seriously, I wish I had a drink. You're not supposed to cheers with water, but I'm going to anyway.
Speaker 1:I went through the therapy process. It was not easy. I recognized that I was going to have to push myself way out of my comfort zone and I did. And six months later I don't want to say I was cured, but I got to the other side. At least at that point of my grief I forgave myself for being angry at my dad. I forgave my dad for being the person who he was and for not being the person that he could have been, that he had the ability to be, and all of his children knew that he could have been this person. But the most important thing that came out of it for me was I found a way to release the anger, and for me that was huge, because I didn't realize initially that I was so angry at him. I mean, believe me, when he was alive he gave us plenty to be pissed off at him about, but it wasn't something that was just easily recognizable for me after he was gone, and so I'm grateful for that. That my therapist helped me realize what was going on and helped me to get past the anger Again.
Speaker 1:I'm never saying cured or any word like that, but there was another side of it. I was able to see what it looked like on the other side of that grief. And, yes, even bad relationships or complicated relationships, every loss does still need to be grieved, and I just wasn't seeing that at that time I wasn't aware of it. I didn't realize how much even something bad or something so complicated does need to be grieved and it really does. The process was amazing. I had plenty of support before that, plenty afterwards and, I will say, over the next couple of years. Yeah, my dad came up plenty in conversations, but something that has been probably the biggest support for me personally is this podcast, because there is now not a single day that goes by where I don't think about him, not because, whether I want to or choose to, it's part of the conversation, it's part of everything that I'm doing about this podcast.
Speaker 1:And I didn't necessarily do this to honor him or anything like that.
Speaker 1:I did this to kind of initially make myself vulnerable and explain how I got through what I went through. But I did it because I recognized that so many other people either have gone through or are going through something very similar to what I was going through. The difference was I had somebody in my life who recognized it very quickly and I took steps to fix it. But not only my wife. I also have my three brothers and my three friends who are mentioned widely early on, especially in the first three episodes of this podcast. This group of friends, this group of guys that I had to lean on not everybody has that, not everybody has a group, not everybody even has one person who they can talk to, who they can confide in, who they can just have there to talk about anything, and so that's why I did this to try to get everybody to confront their grief head on the way that I did and yes, it's not something I did alone, and I don't think anybody does this alone.
Speaker 1:If we all had the tools to be able to confront our grief head on and on our own, well then none of us would be grieving, because we'd all have the answers and we'd all have it figured out. But the simple truth is we don't. And because of that, because of everything that I learned on my journey, I put this platform together to try to bring everybody together, or bring as many people as I possibly can together as a community, because, as we've spoken about already today, this is something that affects everybody. I'm not trying to necessarily get aim recognition and change the entire world. I would love to. I would love to be able to improve these things, because it's something that's very needed. Much like you, I don't necessarily need the spotlight. I also know that if I'm going to do a podcast, I don't really have a choice.
Speaker 1:I'm the guy who's on the microphone at the beginning, middle and end of every single episode. That was a big thing for me, pushing myself out of my comfort zone. The very first day of a podcast class that I took, we had to do a one minute recording talking about the podcast and, holy shit, it took me a half an hour to record a one minute message and I'm like, if I can't do that, how am I going to talk to people? How am I going to be able to help people get through what they're getting through? But somehow I got through it. Thank you, christina Driscoll and, since then, all of the people that I've had the honor of interviewing and will continue to. It makes a difference. Talking about these things makes a difference. It's life-changing in many ways.
Speaker 2:It's a form of warning right.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:It is. It is a form of warning. I love what you're doing, nick. I mean, when you first reached out to me and I listened to sort of the trailer and teaser of your podcast, I absolutely love what you're doing for lots of reasons, because I think there's a lot of people I mean fathering, fatherhood is a complex, really painful issue for so many people, but then combine that with grief. You know the death of a father, but also you doing this podcast, you creating this podcast, is a very creative form of mourning for you. This is helping you heal, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I didn't realize just how much it was going to help when I started this. I did this because I want to help other people. I didn't realize how much this was really going to help me. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And to your point about trying to do this alone. Grief and navigating loss has always been a communal activity, as far as we know, in the history of human species always been communal. We always do this with our tribe, with our people. It isn't something that anybody should try to do alone. You need your tribe, you need your people and you're right, some people don't have that. Some people are very limited in terms of their social connections and it's just vital that you reach out and get the support you need to move through this.
Speaker 1:One of the bad sides, the downsides of not having a tribe or not having people or a group of friends, or even, like I said before that one person, is that you get stuck with it because you don't know how to process it. And part of a bigger problem when I was growing up is how therapy was seen as taboo, especially for younger people, for children, for boys, for girls. When I was in school, junior high school and high school never heard a single story about a kid that I went to school with, and there were, I think, 600 something kids in my graduating class. Never heard a single story about any of them that were in therapy or that were in counseling. It just.
Speaker 1:I'm sure that there were examples of that, but it was never discussed. It was hush, hush, it was taboo, it was ooh, ooh. That family, we don't want to talk about them. And that's how it was. I mean, when I was growing up as a younger boy, before even being a teenager, anytime that a topic came up about feelings or emotions, all the adults were saying you know, boys, don't worry about that stuff. The men were saying it, the women were saying it. That's not something that boys talk about, that's for girls, that's for the women. Well, that's not something that boys talk about. That's for girls, that's for the women.
Speaker 1:well, well, holy shit, okay, fine, and then it's never, addressed and we grow up more fucked up than ever, and I love that. Society is improving. It's getting better. It's a long way to go. I'm not going to say that we're anywhere close to the finish line because we have a long way to go.
Speaker 2:The stigma around mental health is changing and I'm so happy to see that, but it's still there. You're right. And you know and men in general are, you know learning to, to access and express their emotions. You know it's just part of being human male or female, it doesn't matter. You know our emotions are there for a reason. You know they are asking us to bring attention to something that wants attention and we have to pay attention to them, and what I always say is invite them to tea. Whatever emotion shows up, invite it to tea, have a conversation with it. What is it you're asking me to give attention to right now? They're here to serve us to heal.
Speaker 1:You talk about inviting to tea. It makes me think back to another thing they read in the book. In a minute we're going to get to some of the things of what not to say, but this is kind of a combination lot. I'm going to call you tomorrow, I'm going to call you in a couple of days to check on you. Don't leave it open-ended for the person who's grieving because-.
Speaker 2:Put it on their list of things to do.
Speaker 1:No, don't put something else on their list, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. You have to be very proactive. When you're supporting somebody through grief, you initiate action, you follow through. Like you said, you know I'll call you tomorrow. And then you call them tomorrow. You invite them to a meal. You bring food by, you show up. You know these are proactive things. That's what's most helpful. They're curled in on themselves. They're really not in a space where they're going to be able to be very actively reaching out for the support they need, but they need it, so we've got to show up for them in that way.
Speaker 1:When you talk about showing up, like saying you know, either invite them out for a meal or just show up with food. Do you see and I'm not saying that there is, I'm asking your opinion do you see anything wrong with just showing up with food, like showing up with a casserole or a platter, or picking up McDonald's or whatever, and just go over with food, even if they're not expecting it?
Speaker 2:Well, do that. They can tell you you know I'm not up to it right now and hand in the bag and you leave. But do that. I mean food is a language of love. You know food, a casserole dish is. I love you written, love you written all over it. So when you show up to someone's home and bring food, the model that I follow as a grief counselor is called the companioning model, and the word companion means with bread. It's somebody you would sit down to a meal with. So the work I do is basically walking alongside people. So meals, food really important part of that process for helping people know that they're not alone and also they may not be even able to prepare food for a while. In the acute stage of grief people are really not functioning well, not sleeping well, they're a mess. I've been in that place. They need a lot of very tangible support. Food is a big part of that. So show up with the food, with the casserole, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:The point is don't be afraid to show up, don't be afraid to be there, don't be afraid to initiate the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because sometimes people there's a hundred ways to talk yourself out of doing that. Right, they're having a nap, I'll wake them up, or they don't want the company. 100 ways to talk yourself out of it, but feel the fear do it anyway.
Speaker 1:Show up. It really is important to just do it. Don't let yourself be talked into 100 reasons why not to do it. You know it's funny. I don't mean to keep bringing it back to the podcast, but that's honestly something that I went through in the very beginning. The lady Christina Driscoll, who I mentioned before, who did the podcast class that got me to be part of this community. When I did it, when I started the class, I was in between jobs. I had my previous job. The contract had ended at the end of 2023.
Speaker 1:The first three months of this year I was unemployed and this was beginning of February and she saw something in me that holy shit. I don't know how she saw it, but the passion, the personality, whatever. She saw all the things and she really wanted me to be part of her class and I said I want to, but my excuse at the time was I was worried about the financial commitment. I didn't want to spend money that I didn't have, that wasn't really coming in. And she said look, I completely understand, but this is something that you are passionate about, whether you see it or not. I see it in you and I really think that you should take a chance and do this. At least try. Give it a shot when you get a full-time job. If it becomes too much, you can take a chance and do this. At least try. Give it a shot when you get a full-time job. If it becomes too much, you can take a step back. If you're overwhelmed, if it's too much on your plate, you can take a step back. But for the time being, while you're not working, you have no reason not to do it.
Speaker 1:And she also said if you wait because of money, if that's your biggest concern, then when the time comes and you have a full-time job, you will come up with a hundred reasons not to take this venture and you'll never do it. And she was right. And I said all right, what do I have to lose? If it becomes too much? Then I'll address that at that time. And by the time I found the job, it was seven weeks into a 10-week class and there was no way I was backing out of this. So yeah, I mean, you're just like that. She said exactly what you said. I would have come up with 100 reasons to talk myself out of doing this and if I had, I wouldn't be sitting here with you, I wouldn't have met her. I wouldn't have met all of the unbelievable people that I have met so far on this journey to help other people.
Speaker 1:So yeah sometimes you do need to get out of your own head. You need to just not find a reason to talk yourself out of doing something, especially when it comes to a friend or a coworker or a loved one who is experiencing loss and who's experiencing grief. Would you say? That's accurate?
Speaker 2:Don't talk yourself out of helping somebody, yeah, I mean, I like to say, you know, think of it as though their clothing's on fire. If somebody who's grieving, this is not a situation you just walk on by, you know you have to take some action. Take action now. It just needs to be thought of in that way. You know, this is a critical moment for this person and I need to buckle down and be present and show up for them, be engaged, let them know they're not alone.
Speaker 1:That's a really great way of putting it and I hope that resonates with everybody who's listening to the show.
Speaker 2:Don't pass by, don't miss the opportunity, doing nothing when somebody is grieving, when somebody needs somebody the most, whether it's recognized or not, walking away from that situation or walking by it is possibly the biggest mistake you can make a chapter that's called Stop, drop and Roll, thinking about if this person's on fire, what action should I take, and so I've created basically a plan for how you support somebody through loss, and it's based on the idea that they're on fire. This is a very serious situation. Their grief is real, it's affecting them in profound ways and they need a ton of support and they need your help. They need your help to heal.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great teaser for the book and we can leave that section there because we're not going to give you guys any more information about that. You need to buy the damn book. I will ask this question. You go over a lot of things of what not to say. Aside from anything that we've already covered. What is probably the biggest don't say this to somebody who's grieving.
Speaker 2:For me it's everything happens for a reason. You know, don't say that. Do not say that it's kind of reflexive. We say it because we sort of hope that's true. But there's no reason to think it is true. And besides that, it just is plainly not helpful to somebody who's in grief that they now have to figure out what good reason did my 12-year-old son die of brain cancer? It's really unhelpful and really, I think, even unkind. So take that one out of your list of things that you might ever consider saying. You know that everything happens for a reason.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of things we probably should avoid saying. Anything that starts with the words at least, like at least he didn't suffer, or at least his sufferings over, or at least you had many good years together. You know, at least you're young, you can remarry. Anything that starts out with at least yeah. Just don't finish that sentence, you know. Just stop basically saying well, here's the very least shred that you have to hang on to. What they need is something more positive and substantial than well, at least there's this. Other things I think should be avoided include he's in a better place For the person who's grieving. The best place for their lost loved one is right here, alive with them, right beside them, not some other place where it's wonderful and they're having a grand time. Even if your theological beliefs support that idea that they're in a better place, it's fine to hold that belief, but when you're providing support for somebody who's grieving, it isn't helpful to say that they're in a better place.
Speaker 2:The person- wants them right here beside them. That's the better place. But what else? The things that move them away from their grief, things like stay busy, think about something else. Another one that people say a lot. I've probably said it is I know just how you feel, you don't. Let's just say that out loud, because it makes them feel lonely, because they know you don't know how they feel. It makes them feel unseen.
Speaker 1:And even if it's a situation if you go up to somebody who just lost their brother, let's say, even if you've had a brother who died, also saying I know what you're going through, you don't, because your situation was very different from what theirs is, even though they both revolve around the loss of a brother, yeah, it does not mean that you know what that person's going through right.
Speaker 2:everybody grieves in a unique way. The nature of the relationship determines what that grief process is going to look like. There's no two alike in the universe. Yeah, so you really don't know how they feel? No, so it's okay. How are you feeling? You know and ask about their feelings, but don't project yours onto them.
Speaker 2:People are really well-intentioned, they are. I believe that you know when they say these things and it stings. You know the griever is like oh why did you say that? I don't think there are very many people really who are intending to do harm by saying those things. We need some education around that and a little more insight into what's it like for this grieving person Before we say things that are scripted from something you've heard before. We're driven a lot by that discomfort. To provide support for somebody who's grieving, you really do have to learn how to tolerate some discomfort. You know you have to be able to sit with somebody who's in pain and not try to take that pain away. It's not your job to take their pain away. Your job is to acknowledge it, to say you see their suffering and you're going to stay right beside them while they move through this suffering. It's not your job, to take the pain away.
Speaker 1:No, it's not, and I do agree with you that what we need, what society needs more than anything, is education on this topic. Yes, it's not ever coming from a place of ill intention. It's not coming from any kind of a bad place. It's just coming from a place of kind of what your book is titled, not knowing what to say. Yes, and so they say something that really is meaningless and not helpful.
Speaker 2:Education is the key. It's one of the titles I like to apply to myself. I'm a grief counselor and a grief educator. It is about education, and you can't fault people for not knowing something before they know it, but I have a body of knowledge that I want to share, and so the book exists because this is just really important information for people to have and to do a better job of caring for their friends.
Speaker 1:And it's important for everybody to have, because it is something that every single person who is within the sound of my voice and the sound of Mark's voice. We're all going to go through it. Yes, we are At one point or another. Either you have or you're going to. One of the two is true, unless if you are in the unique situation of you've never lost anybody close and you pass before such a time comes. But then if that happens, sure you got a little bit of an escape and you don't have to deal with the hard stuff.
Speaker 1:You maybe get a pass, but there are going to be people who are going to be grieving your loss. So this really is something that we have to educate ourselves and each other on. Everybody needs to be educated on this. There are ways to deal with every situation and I wanted to have this conversation with you today because I really believe after I mean, I believed it from the very first conversation we had, but after reading this book, I believe it even more passionately that everybody needs to read this book. And for everybody listening look, this is not a long book. I mean, I think it's. What is it? It's about 100, 100 and 510 pages. Yeah, it's an easy read.
Speaker 2:It is. It's a very easy read.
Speaker 1:Look, I'm not a person who enjoys sitting down to read books. What was the first question that I asked you when you told me about the book.
Speaker 2:Is there an audio version? Is there an audio book? What's there will be.
Speaker 1:An audio book? Yeah, because I mean I love to listen to books, but I love to do it in the gym or when I'm walking, because I'm generally so busy with other things, especially lately either work or the podcast. My wife and I have plenty of things going on as well. This was such an easy read. I did read it in multiple segments because unfortunately I had to go where I had the time, but altogether maybe about two hours to read a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Two to three hours, yeah, somewhere between two and two and a half hours. It was such an easy read and, honestly, once I got into it even at the points when time came up where I needed to stop to do whatever else I had to do I didn't want to stop. I wanted to keep on going. It was so easy to get into and it was even easier to get back into it when I had to pick up the book later. The name of the book is what to Say when you Don't Know what to Say? Loving a Friend Through Grief.
Speaker 1:Mark Lucero is the author and he's also my guest today and, mark, I can't thank you enough for speaking to me about this, for telling everybody about this book, for being strong enough, for being brave enough yourself to finish this project, to see it through. After three months in you were 75% done and you almost walked away from it, and if you had, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation today and there would not be this really valuable piece of literature out there which is going to help a lot of people. I know it will.
Speaker 1:So, thank you for seeing the project through and for not giving up on yourself, for believing in yourself enough to see this through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, nick. I've really been looking forward to this conversation with you Me too. A real pleasure, and I agree this information, I want everyone to have this information. It will help us do a better job of taking care of our friends and loved ones who are grieving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there is some good advice in here that can be applied to other things besides grief. This book is really good life advice. You really need to read it Again. The title is what to Say when you Don't Know what to Say Loving a Friend Through Grief. It is on Amazon. The direct link for buying this on Amazon will be included in the show notes. If you're really impatient and you can't wait for the show notes, then just go onto Amazon and search what to say when you don't know what to say. It will come up right away.
Speaker 1:This is such an easy read. It's such a valuable read and I seriously cannot recommend this highly enough. By the time this episode drops it will be a little bit later on in the year the website will be up. By that point it will be long since published, but I can also say like right now I can say that once the website does get published, a direct link to this book will be on it. So by the time you're listening to this, if you don't want to deal with searching on Amazon, then go to my website, OurDeadDadscom, and go into the recommended section there's a section for books and podcasts and go into books and you will see this book. You'll have a direct link for Amazon right there and save you some time. You just have to log in and do whatever you need to do, and a day or two later, however long Amazon takes to get to your corner of the world, you'll have the book, and you will not be able to put it down either. Mark, thank you so much for this. Yeah, Thank you, nick.
Speaker 2:I love what you're doing man.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that and I hope that we can continue to work together because this is desperately needed for so many people. There's not enough people doing things like this to help and for those who are doing things to help the general public and on an individual level. Thank you for what you're doing, but we can all do more and I hope that everybody will recognize that and will do even. It doesn't have to be big things, it can be small things, but there's so much that needs to be done to help our fellow people and hopefully this book will be the start of that Beautiful. What we're going to do now to end this interview, the way that I've ended every interview one of my favorite parts of the conversation is I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of random questions. They generally do not have anything to do with anything we just talked about. If they do, it's completely unintentional, but this is just a fun way to end the conversation. Get to know some random nuggets of information about you.
Speaker 2:I'm all about random, all right.
Speaker 1:All right, let's do it. Well, I think you actually are really funny that this one comes up. I think you already answered this one. Are you more of an introvert or an extrovert?
Speaker 2:I am, as far as you can go on the end of introversion. You know I love people. I do. I really love people, I love humans. But yeah, I'm an introvert and I get very weary in large groups and big parties and things like that, for sure.
Speaker 1:If you were to devote the rest of your life to philanthropy, what cause would you choose?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I really think we need to be paying very close attention to the environment. You know, and what's happening to the environment? I think you could consider that philanthropy, because it's keeping us all alive.
Speaker 1:I'd probably be devoting some energy and effort into education and making sure people know that we have to live in a sustainable way. I think the last time I think that this question came up was when I interviewed my wife and her answer was take care of the oceans. So I think you're both on the same page there. Yeah, what word do you have a hard time pronouncing, boy?
Speaker 2:there's so many Pick your least favorite, my least favorite word. I do okay with aluminum, aluminum Pusillanimous. That's a tricky one.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Pusillanimous. Ever since I was a kid, I loved big words, and so I love to sort of eat up and chew on big words. What are words to say? Egalitarian, that's a hard word to say sometimes. Okay, how long can you hold your breath? I'm going to say maybe a little over a minute.
Speaker 1:Okay, Where'd you go on your last vacation?
Speaker 2:Last vacation was why don't I remember this? We travel a lot. Well, the one that comes to my mind I'm not sure it was the last, but was to Ireland and Scotland, and we've been there recently. We also did a fall colors tour on the East Coast two falls ago.
Speaker 1:Where did you do that tour? I'm curious because I'm being originally from New York. There aren't many better places in this country to be than the Northeast, in the fall.
Speaker 2:It was a five-state tour. It was a bus tour with a sort of large group went through massachusetts, new hampshire, rhode island oh, forget all the states, but I mean we hit it prime.
Speaker 1:It was just fantastically beautiful mid late september, early october, early october I think it was so beautiful up there that time of year, oh, so good. Do you ever post inspirational quotes on social media?
Speaker 2:Yep, I do. I like to put a lot of positivity out in the world. Mostly, I'm on Facebook and since writing the book, a lot of people are telling me okay, you got to get on Instagram and Twitter and whatever all that stuff. I'm not a Luddite. I'm not opposed to technology, but I have a lot of learning to do to make use of these tools. But yeah, when I'm on Facebook, I try to put positive things out there good, inspirational stuff.
Speaker 1:Nice, and I will have to say, as long as you don't object to this, there are a lot of good quotes that I would love to be able to share from your book. In time, again, I want to let people have the chance to start to read the book, but there are some really great quotes that I do like to share them on my Facebook and Instagram pages from time to time. So, if you wouldn't mind, I would probably love to, and I will obviously give you credit for them, but there's a few that I would really love to post. Love that. Thank you, nice. Of course. If a CEO asked for your advice, what would you say?
Speaker 2:I would say take care of your people. Be generous to the people that work for you. Provide everything you can within your means for health care and good salaries, things like that. I think that makes a rock solid base for a company.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great answer which animal adds more joy to the world? Squirrels or llamas?
Speaker 2:Llamas Not even close. Why is that? Oh, llamas, they're just so freaking adorable. I want to hug them. We did a tour up in the Andes it was called the Llama Walk, and we got to walk with a pack of llamas up into the mountains. And those things are a blast. They're just full of personality. Squirrels are cool, but llamas for sure.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's some good insight. I never thought about llamas that way. Yeah, what do you collect?
Speaker 2:Over the years I've collected a variety of things. I've collected tobacco pipes there's some really interesting carved pipes and things like that and I eventually sold that collection. Right now I can't really see it, but I've got a pretty big collection of vinyl records. I've gotten into spinning vinyl and so I've got some great music here, some great jazz and classic rock and stuff like that. So I'm definitely hoarding records these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love it. What's your favorite type of tea? English breakfast. I have a cup of English breakfast tea every morning, my wife and I. It's part of our morning ritual. We have tea every morning, my wife and I.
Speaker 1:it's part of our morning ritual. We have tea every morning. Nice, what is your favorite animal other than llamas?
Speaker 2:Other than llamas. We have cats, and I just love cats, but I also love giraffes. We don't have any giraffes at our house, but I love giraffes. I think they're just really so strange looking, you know, like it's just like such an unlikely animal there. You know, my wife is very fond of them too, because she's tall and so she kind of they're sort of her spirit animal, you know, and so I love them for that reason too.
Speaker 1:It's funny that those are the two that you said, because we have one cat. She is 18 years old and her favorite toy in the world is her giraffe. My wife's sister and her husband well, their pets one year gave Maxie, my cat, this giraffe for Christmas, probably I don't know at least 10 years ago, and it's become her favorite thing ever. And of course now she has a collection of giraffes. She has, I don't know, four, five, six different giraffes, but the original one is still the best. All right, what's your favorite number?
Speaker 1:13 have you ever stolen anything?
Speaker 2:yeah, you want to hear a story go for it okay.
Speaker 2:So I was in dubrovnik and we were at a restaurant and they served this beer called carlo vachko. They're in these beautiful mugs, they're just giant hearty stout glass mugs with the crest on. And I asked the waiter. I said can I buy one of these? He goes no, sorry, we don't sell the mugs. Well, I thought I've got to have a mug. So I left a really generous tip and I stuck that mug in my backpack and really glad I didn't end up, you know, in a croatian prison, but I it's one of my prized possessions I did steal the mug but I would do it again.
Speaker 1:Did you at least pay in cash, so that you didn't pay with credit card and they couldn't track you down? Green cash, yep Euros yeah, that's a great story. What is your go-to lazy dinner Pizza?
Speaker 2:We start with frozen pizzas, thin crust pizzas, and then we throw everything at them that we have, you know. So all kinds of like broccoli and green red peppers and jalapenos and more, more pepperoni. Whatever we have. It goes on there and it turns into a really good pizza, so easy to do.
Speaker 1:Just make a big mess out of it. It's so good.
Speaker 2:They're just so good, great, just like a mountain of cheese on it and it's I mean, it's so easy and that's a great meal, love it. What's your favorite holiday? I am going to say winter solstice. We used to be Thanksgiving, but it's recently last three, four or five years. We have our dear friends here on the Island. They have a winter solstice party every year and the only lighting in the house is candles. So everybody brings all their leftover candles to the party. Then they light the whole house in candles and it's such a beautiful collection of friends, warm light. You know we always have delicious food and great wine and I just love that celebration. We know that the shortest day of the year when the days become longer, I think it's something like that, but I love that holiday.
Speaker 1:That's a great answer. That's not one that I would have ever thought of, but that's a great answer. The last question for you is what is your favorite childhood TV show?
Speaker 2:I loved Gilligan's Island. I absolutely love that show. I think I kind of am Gilligan, you know, in a way just this kind of goofy and always messing stuff up. And but yeah, I think I kind of am Gilligan, you know, in a way just kind of goofy and always messing stuff up. But yeah, I never missed an episode of Gilligan's Island. Love that show. I got myself one of those white hats that you used to wear when I was a kid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a fun show, so good. What to say when you don't know what to say? Loving a friend through grief is the title of the book that we've been talking about. The link for Amazon is on my website, ourdeaddadscom. It is in the show notes. Cannot recommend it highly enough, mark. Last question for you Do you have a website? I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, would you like to share it? Yeah, thanks. The website for my counseling practice is WeMakeThePathcom.
Speaker 1:If anybody who's listening to this show has been inspired by anything you've said is looking for someone to talk to. Do you work? Do you take on new clients remotely? I do Just in case if somebody does not live where you live.
Speaker 2:Yes, in fact I'm in the process of kind of moving my practice more to an online telehealth kind of practice. I still do see people in person in my office here in Coupeville, but, yeah, definitely taking new clients for Zoom sessions or telephone sessions.
Speaker 1:Nice. So if anybody decided that they would want to reach out to you and begin sessions or even have an initial conversation, any objections?
Speaker 2:Not a bit. Yeah, there's a link on my website to make contact and be delighted to hear from anybody that would like some support.
Speaker 1:Perfect, and your website will also be in the show notes. So thank you so much for sharing that. Mark, thank you for everything. Thank you for your time today. It has been an honor. Again, I'm so grateful to both of our mutual friends, to John and Glenn, for getting us connected, and this has been an absolute pleasure, and I hope that we can continue this conversation. Maybe there'll be further conversations that we'll be able to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there may well be. I look forward to that and it's been a pleasure for me to know. Thank, you.
Speaker 1:This podcast is not just about sad and traumatic stories. We're all about educating ourselves and each other here at Our Dead Dads. That is why I did the interview with Paul Rubin. That's why I did the interview with Mark Lucero. Nobody wants to talk about a kid's grief camp because it means talking about kids who lost parents and siblings. Nobody wants to talk about what to say or what not to say at a funeral or a wake just after it happens. That is why everybody needs to be talking about these topics.
Speaker 1:It is not your fault that you may have said things that weren't the best things to say at the time. I've done it too. We all have, and we've all done it because society didn't give us the tools to talk about these things, to learn these things when we were growing up 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago. Our own families largely didn't have the tools. I want to believe that up until now we've all done the best we could with the tools that we had. Guess what we can do better. You can, I can, and everyone we know can all do better and be better. That is why I'm doing a podcast. That's why my mission statement is changing the world. One damage soul at a time. I've talked on the Hot Seat episode from July about how running this podcast is a one-man show, and that part may be true, but the work that needs to be done couldn't be farther from a one-man show. I need everyone who is willing to give me a chance and listen to this podcast to play that role. It does not take a whole lot of effort to create change, to help someone, to improve someone's life or our own lives.
Speaker 1:If anyone out there is saying I don't know how to do that, that's okay. It doesn't happen overnight or in a week or in a month or sometimes even a year. Grief journeys are forever. We reach the finish line of our grief journey when we reach the finish line of our lives and then somebody else's grief journey begins when they're left behind from our passing. Hopefully we can all do enough work now to make the world a better place, to leave this place better than we found it and maybe, just maybe, to make the grief that the next person or people will have just a little bit easier to process. It doesn't mean they won't have it hard. Of course they will, and don't think of it as I'll be gone. It's somebody else's problem.
Speaker 1:Like I said, we all have an obligation to leave this place better than we found it. Nobody can do it on their own. I know that I sure as hell can't, and, honestly, if any of you are saying that you can do it on your own, you're kidding yourselves. So why don't we do this together? Who's in it for the win?
Speaker 1:If you have a story of grief and loss to share and might want to be considered as a future guest of Our Dead Dads, go to ourdeaddadscom. Go to the contact us link and then select be a guest, fill out the form, send, might be able to tell your own story and carry on this mission of helping ourselves and helping so many others. Again, there are no rules to navigating grief and there's no timeline for doing it either. Everybody needs to go at their own pace, but the most important part is taking the very first step. Whether you want to tell your own story or you just want to listen to others tell their stories, the most important thing to understand is that nobody is alone in grief or should ever feel like they don't have someone who will talk or listen to you. Here at Our Dead Dads, within the safe space of this community. You always have both.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening and join me again next week when I'm joined by Annie LaBeth. I was lucky enough to meet Annie at my last job in Texas about three years ago and our personalities were an instant connection, and not just us. She fit right into the dynamic that our entire department had. Of course, what I mean by that is she's as much of an idiot as the rest of us were, but an idiot with a huge heart who's fluent in sarcasm and dark humor. She's here to talk about what it was like losing her dad so young, how she's processed all of it since and continues to process it, and about making things better for the next generation. Make sure you're following Our Dead Dads on your favorite podcast streaming platform because you will not want to miss this episode or any other upcoming episode. This is our dead dads, where we are changing the world. One damage, stolen time. See you next time.