Our Dead Dads
The concept of Our Dead Dads was born through the daily discussions of seven men who share bonds of blood, friendship and all having lost their fathers. Nick Gaylord, the show’s host, shares his life experiences with his deceased father while exploring the complications and realities of that relationship. Life is intense, grief and loss come in many forms, and no parent-child relationship is black and white, which is why this show touches on all shades of grey.
Join Nick for candid conversations with his three brothers and three of his lifelong friends, along with other special guests who discuss their experiences with loss, grief, laughter, and moving forward. Nothing is off-limits here. Nick learned after his father's passing that he couldn't process what he was going through alone and sought the help of a therapist, who helped him to let go of his anger toward his father. Looking back, he realized just how many people are being crushed under the weight of grief, loss, and in some cases, anger.
Nick's mission through Our Dead Dads is to offer a platform for anyone who needs or wants to tell their story, to have that opportunity. He also hopes to reach many more who need to talk but don't know how to start the conversation, hopeful that by listening to these stories, they will be able to start talking with someone.
Nick has always sought to help others and to make everyone around him laugh. Along with his brothers and friends, he has frequently used humor to get through the hardest times in their lives, and hopefully, you will permit yourself to do the same. Get ready for an emotional deep dive. Nick has a lot to say and so do his guests. He's here for you and ready to help. Everyone has been through trauma, grief, and loss. Now, along with Nick and his guests, everyone will get through it together.
Nick is changing the world one damaged soul at a time. Welcome to Our Dead Dads.
Our Dead Dads
026 - Redefining Happiness Through Change and Community - Nicole Maitland
After the unexpected loss of her father and the burnout from a demanding legal career, Nicole Maitland found solace and healing in podcasting. Join me as I chat with Nicole, the inspiring host of the "Yarns for the Soul" podcast, who courageously shares her journey from the courtroom to the podcasting world. Together, we explore the rollercoaster of emotions that accompany grief and burnout, and emphasize the healing power of storytelling and community connection. Nicole's reflections on the support from her sister and the unpredictable path of life changes remind us of the strength and resilience we all possess.
Life doesn’t come with a manual, but sometimes it offers a quirky anecdote involving a sausage dog and a deer. As we navigate the unpredictable moments life throws our way, this episode explores the fatigue of burnout and the struggle to balance personal growth with the need for community. With an engaging blend of humor and compassion, Nicole and I discuss the importance of compassionate workplaces, the silver linings of early burnout confrontations, and the courage to redefine happiness and mental health beyond traditional career paths.
Our conversation wraps up with an exciting exploration of Nicole's passion project, "Yarns for the Soul." With humor and authenticity, Nicole aspires to create meaningful change through storytelling, connecting with listeners on profound levels. Whether it's through personal anecdotes, the acknowledgment of generational family ties, or the power of shared grief experiences, Nicole's journey serves as a beacon of hope and authenticity. Tune in for an episode filled with heartfelt insights, laughter, and the promise of finding joy amidst loss.
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Hello and welcome to Our Dead Dads, the podcast where we normalize talking about grief, trauma loss and moving forward. I'm your host, my name is Nick Gaylord, and if this is your first time joining me, welcome to the show. If you're a regular listener, welcome back. For everybody listening, thank you so much for the support and thank you for making this show part of your day. The best way that you can continue to support the show is by listening, sending in your feedback on the show's Facebook and Instagram pages and, most importantly, please spread the word about the show. Everybody deals with grief. We are all in this together and the best thing that any of us can do is to support each other through our grief. Follow us on your favorite platform, give us a five-star review and, by the way, if you're not sure how to leave a five-star review, you can go to the homepage of OurDeadDadscom. Scroll down and it'll show you how to do it step by step the ratings, the downloads, spreading the word. I can't thank you enough. We're getting noticed in countries all over the world, so please keep it up. As you all know, I want to be a recognized voice in the grief community, and the more the word spreads about this podcast, the more folks I can help. I really hope you enjoyed last week's conversation, and it was a very intense and emotional interview with Mel Mosier. This week is episode 26, and we're going to scale it back just a little bit in terms of intensity, but we still have just as great of an interview with Nicole Maitland.
Speaker 1:Nicole is also a podcast host and her show is called Yarns for the Soul. She's here to tell us all about that and everything else she's been through in her short life. She went to college to become a lawyer, worked in that field for five and a half years, got burned out and decided to upend everything and start over. During that time, she also lost her dad, who she was very close with. Fortunately, she had her sister to help her get through the roughest times, but, as we find out today, there's no easy way through anything when it comes to dealing with grief. Before we get started, I would like to thank you again for listening, for your feedback and for engaging with the show. Please don't forget to follow the show's social media pages on Facebook, instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1:As you know, my goal is to normalize talking about grief, loss and trauma, which are topics that are not easy for most of us to discuss, but they are also topics that everybody should be talking about more, not only discussing them, but not feeling like they're taboo topics. Time may not heal all wounds, but keeping everything bottled up inside doesn't heal anything. Together, we are building a community for others to have a safe space to talk about their stories and their feelings, and for anyone who may not yet be ready to talk, just to listen to others and know that no one is alone in this path. That is why I say we are a community and I'm so happy to have you here.
Speaker 1:If you have a story of grief and loss to share and might want to be considered as a future guest on Our Dead Dads, go to OurDeadDadscom, go to the contact us link and then select be a guest, fill out the form, send it in and you just might be able to tell your story and carry on this mission of helping ourselves and so many others. That said, it's now time to start the show and turn the spotlight over to Nicole. Please enjoy this episode and stick around for the end when I'll tell you about next week's episode. Hello, there you are, good morning.
Speaker 2:Hello, what time is it there?
Speaker 1:It is 6.11 am here.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And you are the first of three interviews this morning, so this is going to be a long morning for me.
Speaker 2:You've got another two today.
Speaker 1:I actually have a first interview call right after you and then I have another full interview call, but either way, this is going to be pretty much the next six hours or so going to be dedicated to this. So I'm all excited. I've got my tea with honey, because my throat is. I don't know what's going on, but this has been going on for about the last month or so, and especially if I'm going to spend five or six hours talking, then tea with honey will come in very handy. But I don't care, because I'm dedicated to having all sorts of fun and helping people and that's what this is all about. So I don't care how long this takes or how long I have to talk or how my voice sounds at the end of it, because everybody's amazing and I love doing this how are you this morning, or it's this afternoon for you now, isn't't it?
Speaker 2:Well, what is the time? It's 10 past 11, but I'm not a morning person.
Speaker 1:Okay, you must not be if you're still drinking your coffee.
Speaker 2:It's fine. Yeah, I had a slow morning and then I'm staying at a friend's place, so I'm like I was taken over her bedroom near Edinburgh in Scotland. But I had my whole plan this morning and then the blender wouldn't work this morning and then the blender wouldn't work, so I haven't had my smoothie. So I'm like, oh my goodness, we'll just have coffee until lunchtime.
Speaker 1:Wow, after 11 and you still haven't had breakfast, because that was while I was making my tea, when I had texted you and you said that you still had your coffee. So you must not be an early starter. I mean, it is a Saturday, so I do understand that yeah, I'm kind of neither.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've always been good like at either end. I think there's a very small window in the middle of the day where I function until I get hungry and then I don't function either.
Speaker 1:Then hungry turns into hangry and everything goes south.
Speaker 2:So I barely get anything done. It's a struggle.
Speaker 1:The struggle is real. We need food, we need coffee, we need tea. Well, I don't drink coffee, so my wife drinks coffee.
Speaker 2:I love the smell of it, but I hate the taste of it.
Speaker 1:Enough about me. We've got all sorts of things to talk about. We want to learn all about you. You did mention how you had mainly stopped working full-time a couple of years ago and now you're traveling, which I knew that all about you already. You spent some time in the UK and now you're in Scotland, but we also have some grief topics to talk about. So I think I'm going to turn this over to you and just let you dive into it and let's talk about all of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I'm still figuring out how to tell my life story in a concise way, and I don't think it is particularly concise.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if there's any concise way for any of us to tell our life story other than I'm here, I showed up, it happened. Yeah, okay, let's do it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Someone. Someone asked me recently like I met someone new and they're like oh, like, what are you up to? What do you do? I'm like and I found it's one of those questions, it's sort of like a how are you? Question. I'm like, what kind of answer does the other person want? Do they want me to be like yeah, I'm fine, thanks, and then carry on with your day? Or do you actually want to know, because I can talk for hours about all of this? So with this person it was like this judgment call. I'm like how much do you actually want to know? Right, but yeah, we can't jump in. So from New Zealand, that's the accent. If it's a bit weird.
Speaker 2:That's why which I love by the way strange vowels in there, you would think even being in the UK, because I did some travel around Europe first and then came over to the UK last year and I was actually really looking forward to it. Because I did some travel around Europe first and then came over to the UK last year and I was actually really looking forward to it, because I'm like everything will be in English. I can understand everyone. Like if you get in trouble, public transport, whatever I'm going to understand everyone. And then I've had so many instances where people don't understand me in my accent. I've never been so self-aware and being able to hear my own voice before. Okay, yeah, which hear my own voice before. Okay, yeah, which is quite entertaining.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so part of my backstory involves being a lawyer in New Zealand for about five and a half years in different roles. Within that time yeah, five and a half years I had four different jobs in four different cities, right, so that realizing that's just a part of who I am is I like new things, new challenges and kind of. I think I know that unless I throw myself out in the deep end, I'm like it's easy being comfortable, you know, but that's not where you learn stuff. So I've kind of always had that approach. But my jobs are all fairly traumatic, working in criminal law and human rights and stuff like that, so it was all quite gnarly, but it was stuff that I cared about which yeah, made it easy to do the job, except when you're not paid very well, that's a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that can definitely grate on you a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it all sort of compounded. And then, yeah, about two and a half years ago, I tried to transition down to part time with the firm that I was working for and go remote, but it just all was too hard. Firm that I was working for and go remote, but it just all was too hard. And I really, looking back, I felt like someone had grabbed me by the shoulders and was just like shaking me and being like just leave, just walk away, we'll figure it out. So that's what I did I walked away with no plan, not a lot of savings, just trusting. Yeah, it was interesting process, figuring out who am I if I'm not a lawyer. So there was like identity stuff to figure out and releasing this idea of what you're supposed to be or, you know, throwing away all the work and the experience in the study you're trying to find a societal norm to fit into yeah, realizing there was so much to unpack there and it was all ideas coming from external sources, and I'm like, actually I'm quite comfortable making these choices and doing something different you're trying to please everybody else and not listening to you
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly. So yeah, sort of had about a year or so doing a couple of random jobs which is so nice, doing something like practical and not mental, okay, just getting able to walk away at the end of it. And then, through a friend, started legal research, contract work, part-time, and then was very lucky to be able to take that overseas with me. So middle of last year, packed my life into a couple of bags and headed across the other side of the world. So my best friend was getting married in France, which kind of triggered all of this travel. And then I thought why not get a visa? It's easy enough for us to get a UK visa, which was quite handy. So, like, we'll go hang out on the other side of the world for a couple years, see what I can find.
Speaker 2:And my plan was to be a nomad for six months and doing like house sitting and stuff. And my contract got extended. They were like, yeah, we're happy to keep going, we can extend it for like another 18 months. I'm like, okay, that sounds fun. So, yeah, I've been a nomad for over a year now. And then, yeah, heading home in November, which is very exciting. So I've realized I tend to do things in like 18 month chunks. So I will have been a nomad for about 18 months before that. I was kind of recovering at home for 18 months my jobs the longest I've been in was 18 months.
Speaker 1:I haven't figured out what the 18 month barrier is well, let's see how many things we can apply 18 months for. Maybe someday you'll get married for 18 months. Maybe someday you'll have a kid for 18 months and then sell it off. And, you know, start another.
Speaker 2:He says no, I'm only kidding, you're not gonna have a kid and sell it off I don't want kids anyway, but I'm like maybe a dog or like, yeah, well, I probably I'm not gonna get rid of a dog, am I? I can't do that no, definitely not.
Speaker 1:A dog might be a little tricky to travel all over the world with that's why I don't have one yet I am.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to be responsible as much as I want one, and looking after other people's animals while I'm away definitely helps you have been doing that.
Speaker 1:You told me that you recently had a puppy as part of the conversation that you were not originally planning on yeah, it was like this lovely kind of like.
Speaker 2:They had this lovely old house and big backyard in the sort of like small town england with the one year old dog and then four ducks. So I became a duck expert and then a goldfish. I'm like easy, I can handle this. And then about a month out they said, oh yeah, by the way, sorry, but we've got a puppy. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1:do I have a choice?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean I sort of had a choice, but I was sort of relying on like spending three weeks there and I would have had to change my plans. I'm like that's just one thing too many. And it was a dachshund puppy. So they have a soft spot in my heart for dachshunds. So right, I did. It was eventful, we had to. I pulled her out of a pond.
Speaker 2:She got chased by a deer um oh no like some of the things, but she survived, so I did my job she survived, you survived, the deer survived, I'm assuming yeah, because it sort of like backs on to kind of farmland and so there's just deer, that sort of stroll down the back of the yard occasionally. Yeah, and then one evening about 6 pm I just heard this awful squealing from like the trees and then she comes running out very small sausage dog puppy, followed by a deer oh my goodness is this how I go?
Speaker 2:am I going to be attached by a deer saving a sausage dog?
Speaker 1:you know, the tiny little dog is probably running about as fast as she can and the deer is just like walking along at a normal pace, like all right, where are you going? I'm gonna keep chasing you, but you can try to run, if that's what you want to call running yeah, exactly, definitely small dog syndrome. I'm like you can't, you're not gonna take on a deer, this is no this is not smart no, not a good idea no, yeah, so that's been part of my life.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, still kind of recovering from burnout, kind of didn't realize until I stopped working. Initially I'm like, oh yeah, I'll take a couple months off and then I'll look for like law jobs. But yeah, it wasn't until I stopped that it all kind of caught up to me and I'm like, oh shit, okay yeah, yeah, like months and months of rest with not really feeling better.
Speaker 1:But yeah, kind of I'm learning to trust the process because it's got me this far, which is pretty magical so, now that you have been post burnout for a couple of years, how are you enjoying your life at this point?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's. It's a good question. I'm realizing it's a complicated answer, like it should be an easy.
Speaker 1:Should be an easy question it shouldn't be an easy question or an easy answer. This is, I mean, first of all, it's your answer. So yeah, you know you talked about earlier about trying to give an answer that you thought somebody didn't want to hear. I'm not looking for the answer that you think I want to hear, I'm looking for the real answer. I'm looking to Nicole to say like this is what it is Good, bad or indifferent.
Speaker 2:This is life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is. We're brutally honest here, we don't pull any punches and we're just here to have a good conversation with our tea and our coffee and it's all about brutal honesty. So, yeah, tell me like how it's. I mean we're going to get into the hardest stuff in a little bit, but you know, let's ease in a little bit. So how has life been post lawyer? I mean, I think lawyers like many other jobs, once you're a lawyer, you're always a lawyer. But since you, what does your mug say?
Speaker 2:dig for victory dig for victory my friends and I'm not quite sure what it means. I think we should all dig for victory in one victory.
Speaker 1:My friends and I'm not quite sure what it means. I think we should all dig for victory in one way or another yeah, victory in life, victory in sports, whatever it might be. You experienced your burnout. You have been a nomad for the last year and a half or so how are you enjoying?
Speaker 2:that, yeah, or are you not enjoying it?
Speaker 2:It's both.
Speaker 2:I've had some really good conversations with friends about this recently and it okay, yeah, finding people that kind of get it, which is really amazing, and it's kind of both like my reality, the lack of energy, the fatigue is challenging and kind of coming up against that and those expectations or feeling like I'm slowly getting better, but then doing the classic thing is we fill out the time like as we get more energy, we use all of it, and so I'm really trying to be conscious of not doing that, but then kind of being frustrated or angry or be like well, why is this happening to me, realizing that I've got so much less capacity than I used to, kind of comparing back to how I used to function and being like, well, why can't I be like that anymore?
Speaker 2:But all of these sort of things that I've learned about myself, kind of the self-development journey that I've gone through, kind of post-burnout and grief I've learned so much about myself and I'm a completely different person to who I was, you know, five, ten years ago and actually as part of me that wouldn't change any of that. Like I know that I'm. I'm happier walking through life this way, but the things that you have to go through to get there and then the kind of like health issues I guess that I'm still kind of pushing up against means that I have to do life in a very different way. So I'm happier, but I'm also frustrated.
Speaker 1:What kind of health issues?
Speaker 2:So it's like the fatigue post-burnout and acknowledging that you know, I try and take responsibility for my decisions and I acknowledge that I'm choosing my hard by living as a nomad, because it's not the easiest and feeling like, yeah, there's lots of things I could be doing, but it's hard to look after yourself completely when you're kind of moving and on the road. So getting home in November, which definitely feels like the right sort of thing and being grounded and missing my community. So I'm hoping that returning to that will definitely help kind of just continue slowly getting better and increasing my capacity because, yeah, sort, there's so many things I want to do.
Speaker 2:But I'm in this limited capacity every day.
Speaker 1:Now, when you go home in November, is this because your contract is over, because you're done with doing what you're doing? Is this just a visit back home, or are you planning on staying there and getting the next thing started in your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I still have my contract work through till end of June and we're talking next year. So I've got work, which is amazing, and kind of having those conversations about extending it or, you know, doing something different. So it's sort of a let's go home and see all my people, because that sort of mist is a nomad.
Speaker 1:How long are you going to be home for?
Speaker 2:I don't know. It's the part of the plan that I'm not sure. I definitely want more travel. I don't know whether that looks like going back to nomad life, like it is quite fun and now at least I know kind of how it feels and what is required from me to make it work financially, what that all looks like, or there's lots of countries that are starting to do like digital nomad visas. So doing something like that for a year, provided I still have work, or just going on a holiday. I'm kind of again trying to lean in and trust the process because I'm feeling like I need to go home. It'll be in time for New Zealand summer through to December.
Speaker 1:So go home for some sunshine and then just trusting that the right things will kind of happen now I know we're going to talk about some family loss and some parental loss as far as the grief aspect, but do you think that there has been a grieving process for what your past life was?
Speaker 1:and I'd say past life, not as in. You could never go back to it or you'll never work an office job or that kind of a job again, but you had that crazy lifestyle for years. You had the burnout. Grieving can be for something good, for something bad, as we've talked about so many times on this show, with different relationships. We've had some great relationships that we've talked about. We've had some incredibly traumatic and violent relationships that we have talked about as well. But we've also learned and discussed that grieving comes in so many shapes, forms, sizes. Do you feel that you've been grieving that lifestyle of leaving it behind?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so many. I mean I like absolutely love the work that you're doing and talking about grief, and that's part of my why as well, having experienced it at a like younger age as well and realizing no one knows how to deal with it. But then you realize, you know we're awful like dealing with grief around bereavement, but the grief shows up in other places and we also don't know how to deal with it in any places really. So it was, yeah, the identity stuff kind of I felt like I had to work through first when I was deciding when I was still working full-time, but deciding what the next thing was, realizing I couldn't continue this. That's where I thought maybe I'd try and do part-time, maybe I'll dial it back a bit, and then deciding to actually walk away was sort of being like you know, I spent five years at university, worked for five and a half years, I did a master's while I was working, just, you know, just for fun, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it was like all of that time and money being like am I throwing this away, but did some coaching, like did a coaching program around that time which was really helpful to reframe, being like it's not just the piece of paper or the money. It's like what are the skills that you've got? Look at the transferable skills, look at their experiences. So that was really helpful, being like, actually I get to take all those with me, they don't disappear no, they don't ever disappear yeah, and being like oh, I'm actually quite competent, just a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have a little bit of competency in us yeah, but yeah, they're sort of unpacking, be like well, it was interesting during that kind of recovery phase, meeting new people and introducing yourself, because, you know, I was like I actually I can't lead with like hi, I'm nicole, I'm a lawyer, you know, like if someone asks what you do, it almost sort of felt like a social experiment. At times I sort of challenged myself to not bring up law at all, sometimes, meeting new people and being like, oh, you know, I'm just doing some casual hospitality work, you know. But then it was fascinating watching people's perceptions of you shift when I did tell them. If I told them but like, oh, yeah, but I was a lawyer and it shifted, which was yeah it's an interesting reflection on other people, I think.
Speaker 2:But what I kind of unpacked was, even if I'm not working as a lawyer, realizing that I still care about it, and then actually like the idea of justice is still quite strong for me and that that can be a personal value, so I can still care about justice aside from like professional identity. So that's actually been really helpful kind of, yeah, reframing that what is actually me, and I think that helped with kind of the loss and the grieving process. It was just kind of recalibrating identity the loss and the grieving process.
Speaker 1:It was just kind of recalibrating identity, finding that everything does have a place, even if you have to figure out what that place is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And yeah, realizing I've got all those skills and I still, you know, I still care about justice, and it could look different whether I go back to work as a lawyer. Yeah, I think one of the hardest parts about grieving in that sort of context is the external kind of noise that you get and people asking why you left, and then they often get the whole life story about burnout and then telling them the types of work that I did and they're like, oh yeah, okay, it makes sense now, but they still had to ask.
Speaker 1:Of course you did. How many times does somebody ask that you tell them the story and then you can kind of see on their face and I hope this doesn't happen, but I'm curious if it does. But after you tell the story you see on their face. Holy shit, I'm sorry. I asked Does that ever happen?
Speaker 2:A little bit. But again, I choose to see it as a reflection on other people because I think I've gotten more comfortable telling my story and being intentional about the language that I use. That's been kind of a work in progress for me. Like in the early stages I didn't use the word burnout because I'm kind of like in my head it was like it should be a medical diagnosis and no one's given me this word. How do I know if I'm burnt out compared to the other person? So that's been a process of actually claiming that and then being okay using that in conversation and random people that I meet. Be like, yeah, I went through burnout and some people get it, some people don't. Yeah, and I choose to see that as a reflection on them and you take that from them. Be like, okay, you're not interested in learning anymore about this.
Speaker 1:Right, that's on you exactly, and I think that you have to use everybody's reaction individually, because some people aren't interested, some people are going to say you're in your 30s, how can you be burnt out? What you are a lawyer for five years big deal. There are people that are do way more traumatic shit than that. How can you say that you're burnt out? So people are going to have those reactions. It's unfortunate because people look in human nature. Unfortunately, as loving as we can be, we're also very judgy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. But then I've had some really lovely kind of experiences and that's why, you know, I'm kind of driven to just continue being quite frank and honest about my experiences, because then I've had other people that would say like, or like I've been through something similar, like people that have said they haven't necessarily reached the point of burnout, but they feel like they're getting there or they're like trying to look at. You know, life changes and how to make it better. So it's actually nice that it gets to open those conversations as well with people that are receptive, because I think chronic stress in our society is just prolific and we need to do something about it.
Speaker 1:As well, you couldn't have been more accurate when you say that I have been pretty close to burnout situations myself. I worked a job in Texas the first job that we actually moved to Texas for. I was there for four years and when I went there it was I mean, it was a very small company. When I got there it was still owned by the original owner. Two years in he sold it and it was acquired by a group that honestly had no idea what the fuck they were doing. And I still say that they were trying to scale the company up and sell it to a bigger company and continue to provide the services, but they really didn't know what they were doing. I'm still convinced of that. And as the company evolved, as the company changed, eventually we went through a little bit of a downside and there was a layoff.
Speaker 1:I got pretty much shoved into being the plant director because my boss was the plant director and he was part of the layoff, and at that point I was working with a bunch of folks who were terrified that they were going to be let go next. They had no drive or motivation to really do anything, and the senior leadership team that I was reporting to really didn't want to hear anything that I had to offer. So I was stuck in. Even though I was running the facility, I was stuck in the middle. I had leadership who didn't want to hear my opinion. I had people who had no morale and no motivation to work. I mean, they worked, they did, but they thought that they were going to be next, and I mean pretty much everybody was burnt out at that point and I, for the next four or five months, was pretty much working 80-hour weeks and sleeping three hours a night, and it ultimately led to me resigning because of just how bad it got. I quit without having another job lined up, and this was March of 2020, by the way, when this happened, and so we all know what happened then.
Speaker 1:The Monday morning that I went in to give my notice, my wife and I had had a conversation before, because it was something that led to it the previous day that my wife said quit, we'll figure it out. And then the next morning the president goes on TV and is talking about the world shutting down and my wife starts texting me and she's like don't do this. Like I know what we talked about, but this isn't the right time, like we. This is not good and I said sorry, it's too late. I already gave my notice and she was like all right, we'll figure it out. Luckily, about an hour after I gave my notice, as word started, spread throughout the building a boss who is a friend of mine. He worked in quality assurance. He was the director of quality and I have been working in quality assurance since day one in this industry, which is at this point closing it on 30 years.
Speaker 1:And he said look, I desperately need the help. Because he was actually brought in to rebuild that department because there were, I think, five people that were working in quality and within like a three-day period they all found new jobs. It had nothing to do with each other but they were ready to get out of there too. And so he was brought in to rebuild the department and he knew my background and he said, off-board, this stuff, come work with me. And I did that for six months but then I had after that had an offer to go to another company and it just kind of progressed from there and I've mostly been working contracts for the last four years and I have to say I love it.
Speaker 1:I mean I was a supervisor, manager, director role for about 18 years and I'm not sure if I'm ever going to go back to that At this point doing contract work. I can focus on doing the work and supporting my team and I have loved all of the teams that I have worked with in the last four years and I love doing the work that I do. But I'm also not running a team anymore. I mean at that point when I was the leader of that department and eventually that building. It was not enjoyable at the end and that job almost broke me in this industry and I don't know what I would have done next, especially with COVID about to shut the world down and to upend the economy, the global economy, like we've never seen in our lifetimes.
Speaker 1:I'm glad and I'm so grateful that I did have another opportunity to take on another role, which has led to another role and another role after that, but burnout is real. I mean, that's again for the first time in 25 years. At that point, working in this industry, I walked away from a job with having nothing lined up, which I've never done. I don't do. That's not me, but it was my wife basically told me I need you and your health more than we need the money. We will figure it out, and so that's why I ended up giving my notice and luckily, many things have happened after that which have kind of realigned me and at this point I'm not a manager or a director.
Speaker 1:I'm making more money and I mean, you know, now I'm making like 675 an hour as opposed to 475.
Speaker 1:And I'm kidding, yeah exactly, but the point is there are so many ways, especially since COVID has realigned everything in the world. Now, working remotely, like I'm working fully remote at this point, I don't, I haven't. I want to go on site site actually but I've been working at this company for five months and it just hasn't been the need. And I'm sure that there will be at some point, and I'll love getting to get on site and meet people and meet my team in person. But until then, the work that I have to do at home. I'm going to just continue to work my ass off because there's a lot of work to be done, but it can be done remotely, as opposed to five years ago, working in my role, I didn't have the opportunity to work remotely. It just for this type of role, it didn't exist, and now I've found a way that it can. Like when we moved, when we left New York and we moved to Texas, we did it for a job. When we moved to Florida, we did it because this is where we want to be At this point.
Speaker 1:I'm 48. My wife is 51. We don't have kids, it's just us and the cat. Of course, everything revolves around Maxie, but for us it's about living our best life. I will never move anywhere because a job dictates that I have to again, and if the job requires it, then I won't take the job. I mean, I have turned down a lot of job offers because they required me to be onsite in this location or that location and I've always said I'm sorry that I'm not doing it, I'm not going somewhere that we don't want to be. We grew up on Long Island. We grew up near the ocean. We're ocean kids. We want to be near the beach. I don't have to be five minutes from the beach Like in Texas. We were three hours from the beach. It makes a difference. We loved our town in Texas, but the coast is where we want it to be. But the whole point is you have to do what makes you happy, even if there are some things that you have to sacrifice.
Speaker 1:And luckily we didn't have to sacrifice a lot. We thought that there was going to be a time when we were going to, but you have to do what makes you happy. If somebody is going to judge you and is going to say oh, you know why are you doing this and what do you mean? Burnout, who gives a shit? You have to live your life. You can't live your life for them. You have to live your life for you yeah, I feel like this.
Speaker 2:I've got so many points that I could like have a yarn about from like what you've just said. But sure, yeah, I find it's been so interesting. Like I've created, sort of unintentionally, a lot that I've always wanted, like, as you said, like remote work. I never thought that was available to me as a lawyer, and maybe it wasn't because I'm no longer practicing, it's research-based but earning more than I ever was, which means I can kind of afford to work part-time and travel, um. So I'm like getting to live on the other side of the world doing mad life and still working, doing the podcast, and like a previous version of me could never have imagined that.
Speaker 2:But it's sort of hard to explain to people that. I think that's like burnout and grief are similar, that you sort of have to hit a rock bottom and then it reads your priorities and then you rebuild from there and other people kind of look from the outside in and I guess, if you haven't experienced it, I struggle with people that look at my life and say that I'm lucky, I have a real. That one really irritates me, um, because I'm like, well, actually there's been a lot. There's been so many ups and downs that have led me to what I'm doing right now, and a lot of it was about kind of letting go of everything, walking away from the job and then having space, and then the right things kind of tend to find their way in, like what you when you said that you quit your job, you know, the right things kind of just keep coming in. But that's kind of a scary concept if you're trying to explain to people how to do it, like, yeah, just give up this, walk away from your job, it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:Trust the process you know, lucky is a word that, in a situation like yours, I hate to hear somebody say, because I don't think it's about luck. I would say, maybe you're fortunate that you've been able to find the ability to do what you're currently doing and live your life and have the means to do it. But there's a big difference between lucky and fortunate. Unfortunate, you know, lucky almost makes it sound like you were handed this on a silver platter and through no effort of your own and you just happened to have something drop into your lap. I don't think that's the case at all. You walked away from a career that, as you said, you spent five years in university building up to this and then five and a half years working this and you had a career and I'm sure you could have kept working. And but you also, you said you weren't making the greatest money, your stress level was off the charts, you weren't sleeping, your health was suffering. So I don't think that lucky is the way to describe almost losing your sanity and your mental health suffering greatly. So again, this is why I hate that society is as judgy as we are, because people either don't know the whole story or frequently don't want to hear the whole story when you have told your story there. I'm sure have been people that will form their own conclusions either while you're telling the story before you've told the whole story.
Speaker 1:So, look, people are going to be whoever, and whatever they're going to be, you do have to live your best life. That's the ultimate part of it, and you can't worry about what other people are going to do. You have to. At the end of the day, the only person you have to answer to is you. You are not married, you don't have kids, so you're living your life. You're making your decisions.
Speaker 1:You have to figure out what's best for you. You have to figure out what makes you happy. You have to figure out what makes you tick and what you want to continue to do. And if you decide that you want to go, you said you still have the passion for justice. So if you want to go back into being a lawyer, then you have that option. If you want to work for a nonprofit, you can do that. If you want to continue to be a nomad, then you continue to do that. You have to find what works for you, because there's way too much shit going on in this world today to do anything other than to live your best life. We never know when it's going to end, and you have to do that.
Speaker 1:There is something that I'd like to get into a little bit, because normally on Visin Abused, we usually start pretty early on with grief, but we haven't really dove into that yet. So I'd like to have you talk about the parental loss that you've experienced and maybe let's see how this plays into the overall story yes, it's been, as my like capacity has been increasing post burnout.
Speaker 2:I've kind of recently, the last few months, had the energy to kind of start learning a bit more about like chronic stress and trauma in the nervous system, so that I am kind of more empowered and more educated. I don't have a sciencey brain, but I'm trying to learn a little bit of like what's actually going on internally when I tell my story to others. So I'm like you know, this is why it's important. It's not just me, this can happen to everyone. So I've been trying to and part of that the more that I learn, the more I kind of have these bits of information to piece together like my life story, which feels a bit overwhelming at times, but it's also this happened as I was growing up and at times, but it's oh.
Speaker 2:So this happened as I was growing up and then this led to this and this led to these personalities and this led to this thing and I think my brain likes to know why. So some people are like oh, we, you know, it's in the past, it doesn't matter where. We don't like labels, but I need, I think, that sort of level of understanding and then figuring out the yeah, the grief and the burnout story for me is really intertwined and I think in sharing my story I wanted to sort of be able to unpick that so that I can tell people like this was definitely the grief and this was definitely the chronic stress, and this is what happens when you put them together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're gonna bomb yeah, but it's been, yeah, been really interesting and part of me, my most recent sort of question, is like I could have possibly stayed in a state of like chronic stress for years and years, like it could have been decades. I could have continued as a lawyer, working full time, working in jobs where I didn't feel supported. That could have continued and then maybe my health would have been even worse. I could have ended up in a really bad place. But I think the kind of final domino for me I was already chronically stressed, probably from quite early on in my career as a lawyer is what I'm like reflecting back on.
Speaker 2:And then when I was 25, in my second job, my dad got diagnosed with cancer. So it was very well, relatively quick. It was probably about six to nine months before he died. And then, yeah, that was sort of, I think, to me the final domino towards burnout. I think kind of, from that point, as I reflect back on it, it was sort of inevitable from there because I didn't really take the time to deal with it. No one around you kind of knows how to deal with it, workplaces don't know how to deal with it, so you sort of just soldier on.
Speaker 1:You buried yourself in your work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think not having people like when those check-ins sort of stop you, you know, you have like the first month or so and then maybe the first year people are kind of checking in on anniversaries and stuff, and then that all kind of peters out and so you think, oh well, I'm supposed to be okay now, right, because no one's asking and at that age, you know, not having friends that knew what to do or how to support you, so you kind of I just carried on because I thought that's what you're supposed to do and then, yeah, eventually it all kind of came crumbling down.
Speaker 2:I think I pushed on for longer than I probably should have is part of my reflection as well. But there's this weird sort of realization that I'm like. Maybe, you know, if I hadn't lost my dad at that point in time, I might have ended up being more sick later on because my chronic stress would have continued. So weirdly that's the really strange silver lining is actually because I hit burnout at a fairly young age and because of the grief, I've actually had the opportunity to restart and be more intentional and like, go inwards and learn all of these things to be like well, why did this happen to me? How do I stop it happening again in a similar way? And then how can I kind of share my story in a way that other people understand?
Speaker 1:what kind of relationship did you and your dad have?
Speaker 2:it was always really positive, idyllic. I guess you could probably use like my upbringing. I grew up on a farm, small town, new Zealand. The farm had been in my family for like four or five generations.
Speaker 1:You say hadn't. And is it no longer?
Speaker 2:So we still have it.
Speaker 2:It's being leased out at the moment, which is sort of an extra layer of grief when you're attached to kind of like it's not only my home that I've grew up on but it's, you know, like that family farm that has been inherited from multiple generations.
Speaker 2:But I think, growing up because it's just I've got an older sister and it's just the two of us, so I think even from a young age I was like if neither of us want to be farmers or marry farmers, then possibly at some point the farm's no longer going to be in our family. I was like maybe I'll be a high-flying lawyer and earn all this money and then I can pay someone to manage it, but was just sort of, you know, not wanting to give it up, but yeah, I'm so grateful that I had that sort of upbringing, that freedom and being outside, getting home from school. In the days like just before the internet was sort of becoming a thing, you know you would get home and then go outside. I'd be hopping on the farm, I'd be doing whatever, climbing trees, yeah, and I definitely wouldn't change that. And yeah, I feel like my parents gave my sister and I kind of everything we needed are you and your sister close?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, there's four year age gap, which, growing up, was quite a big difference, like I was starting high school where she was finishing high school, but then as adults we reconnected. There's a really strange. We've got, yeah, something different interest, but I think our brains work the same way. It was the last Christmas that we had with my dad and I can't remember what it was. It was like presents that we'd bought for mum and then maybe presents for each other. As we were opening them, we'd basically bought the same things, like we'd both bought like incense for each other or something we'd both bought mum, like a book, and as we were unwrapping, they're like what? It was so, so bizarre and I think, yeah, that was another kind of strange silver lining is like when dad was sick and we actually that was probably the most time we'd spent together in quite a few years and realizing that we're so similar and you know we're going to need each other moving forward.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, have you relied on each other since he's passed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my sister is a grief coach, which is incredibly helpful for me because she's done all this study and courses, and so she experienced the loss of one of her best friends in a climbing accident before dad died, but after he was diagnosed. So in the middle of all of that before dad died, but after he was diagnosed. So in the middle of all of that she had to deal with that. And then, within a few months after my dad died, his father, so our grandfather died as well. So for her it was the loss of these three like really important men in her life and she was like I can't do this. You know, you go looking for resources and you don't find any. So that kind of you know.
Speaker 2:She's become their resource for other people and it's so helpful for me because she's done all this work and we get to yarn about these things, which is amazing is it weird to talk about these things in a therapeutic fashion with your sister I think we often it's yeah, it's the universe being weird, I think but like we often have the same questions at a similar time or we're sort of at similar points in our journey or something will come up and we're like what are your thoughts on this? So it's kind of co-therapy in a way, or like if she learns something, she'll share it with me, and then we're both sort of gone through a bit of a process of like unpacking kind of our background and she's looked into like intergenerational stuff as well and right, yeah, we've had so many conversations on this show talking about how sometimes the helper needs to be helped as well, so I love that you guys were able to bounce stuff off of each other to kind of work through your grief together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so your dad died when you were 25, 26?
Speaker 2:I was 26. Yeah, so my brain doesn't work well with years and numbers, so I've had to intentionally go back. As I'm telling my story, I'm like, yes, no, I have. So I was, yeah, it was my second job and I had moved to the other end of the country, so my first job was actually within about an hour's drive of my parents. And then I moved up to Auckland, which is the other end of New Zealand, and I had decided to start doing my master's degree, sort of bringing all these things into my life. The hours were pretty reasonable. So I'm like, oh, I've always wanted to do a master's. So I'm like, let's get this ball rolling. So I sort of was starting all of that.
Speaker 2:And then we got his diagnosis and I was at the end of the country and, okay, yeah, on reflection, like that couldn't have been worse timing, like I couldn't have been further from home within New Zealand, um, and then, yeah, would kind of fly down every so often. And it was this was sort of mid, middle of the year that we got his diagnosis and then by the following January he had died and so they stopped treatment. He had cancer, so they stopped treatment, sort of November. Um, we sort of you know, started looking at what are the alternatives. Is there like horrible stuff? What are we going to do? Um, I think it was, you know, because it was my family's first experience with grief in that way. We weren't probably great at talking about it. Part of me wonders whether dad knew more than he would let on, because he's trying to protect all of us and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So towards the end I think I was still kind of in denial and then, like, was home for Christmas in the new year period and then flew back up to Auckland in January and my sister was able to stay at home. But I was probably back for about a week before my sister messaged and was like you should come home, but it's yeah. Little bits of that that make me also frustrated because I could have done it differently. You know, like I should have stayed at home, but again, yeah, I was 26 at that stage. So it's like, actually that version of me did the best that she could. Like that's the reality.
Speaker 1:I absolutely believe that you did the best you could and I also attribute that line that you just said to parents, especially my dad, with the relationship that we had. I know that he screwed up a lot of things and I also believe that in some way, even for the not so great parental relationships and I promise I'm not going to make this about him but I do believe that a lot of parents that didn't do the best job still did the best they could with the tools they had, and so I do. I emphasize that because you said that you, the 26 year old version of you, did the best you could, and I absolutely believe that's the case. We can look, we can sit here and we can reflect on now things that you did that you maybe could have done differently, or maybe now you would have wanted to do differently, but I don't know that it's even worth beating yourself up over that, because you did what you did at the time because you thought it was the best way to do it yeah, there's no any difference, hindsight's always 2020 yeah, I guess it's
Speaker 2:those parts of my story that I'm like if people want advice from me, or if people going through something similar, I'm like there's parts that I wish that I had done.
Speaker 2:So I'm like actually, like you know, not caring about work, just telling work, like I'm actually just not going to be there. That's a boundary, that's a no we'll figure it out later but like I need to be at home. And then, yeah, I mean, I don't know if there was any particular conversations that I feel like I needed to have with dad before we left, but like I hadn't even thought about that because I think I was like, no, he's not dying, this is going to be fine. And then things like recording his voice and now that that I have a podcast, I'm like, well, my voice is going to be out there forever, but like little things like that, like photos and just having that voice like record, something like that. So it's like things that I've learned that I know I can't change and I know I did my best, but actually, if there's any kind of words of wisdom for other people, that's kind of things that I would suggest. Look, I think that's kind of things that I would suggest.
Speaker 1:Look, I think that's exactly why we're doing this, because you've got your podcast, which we are going to talk a little bit about, which I'm actually going to get you on in a week or so, and I'm very excited about that. By the way, again, hindsight is always 20-20. There are things that we can say. I wish we did this, I wish we did that, but instead of being able to change the things that we can't change, we can help others to at least have that awareness and try to learn from our experiences. I don't want to say learn from our mistakes, learn from our experiences, because I don't think we can look at the way that we lived our life as a mistake.
Speaker 1:We did as you said, you did what you did the best way that you could, the best way that you thought to do it at the time, and I think that you should always look at it that way. Yes, of course you can say, oh, I wish I had done this or I had recorded that If it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. So you can either torture yourself with it or you can choose to remember the great times that you did have with your dad. Remember the great times that you did have with your dad and express those experiences and maybe tell other people on your podcast.
Speaker 1:Look, if you are in a certain situation, think about doing A, b and C. Focus so much on work, like, look, we all need to work, we all need to make money and have a living. But you have the experience that you have and I think, talking about it and telling other people what you did, and not focusing on the things that you wish you could change, but focusing on the experiences that you did have. You did have that last Christmas with your dad. Now I'm curious, did you know at the time? Did you have an idea at least, that was going to be your last Christmas with your dad. Now I'm curious did you know at the time, did you have an idea at least, that was going to be your last christmas with your dad?
Speaker 2:I think a part of me knew, like had the idea, but it was just like I'm just refusing to accept that or deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and that's something that is part of the grieving process. But also you can talk about that on your show, you can talk about it here and you can tell others look, don't take tomorrow for granted. I mean, we all talk about that all the time. In the lives that we live. We never know when our time is up or when somebody close to us their time is up. It can happen sudden, it can happen over time.
Speaker 1:I think if there's any obligation that we have to ourselves, it is to live our best life, which is why I've loved hearing so far what you've been talking about living your best life. It doesn't have to be about becoming a millionaire or a billionaire and having yachts and this and that and this and that, like. You're living a life that is a lot less stress than when you were almost literally killing yourself at your job. To for what? Like? I mean the firms that you worked for. I'm sure they're all still in business and they're still going on and they're doing it without you.
Speaker 1:So the unfortunately, that shows how replaceable we all are. But did they really give a shit about that your dad was dying and that you needed to be with him? And maybe they did. Maybe they didn't, but it was also, as you've already said, partly on you because you were focused on working and doing that work and not being at home. That is, I have a feeling, part of what led to your eventual burnout, because you just continued to work your butt off even after he passed. But you said that was your second job and you had two other jobs after that. But at that point was it at all about trying to ignore the grief and ignore the fact that you hadn't processed losing your dad?
Speaker 1:and you were just trying to work, work, work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so many things in there. I think, yeah, part of what motivates me and I would love to in the future, do like workshops or something around this for work, like go into businesses and workplaces, because I'm like I experience a lot of things that you shouldn't do like kind of, yeah, helping people understand. If it's not something you've been through, you may not actually know what support could look like in the workplace. So I'm like, actually I've got some input that I can have in that space. I think part of it was, yeah, at the age that I was and not really knowing anyone that had been through it, and going back to work and working with people that didn't understand either. It was the lack of checking in and not knowing what else to do. I guess I didn't have the tools myself, I didn't really have anyone that I could talk to about it, and then going inwards and feeling like, well, no one's asking, I don't really have a lot of support, so we'll just soldier on.
Speaker 2:Possibly it was just burying myself in my work, but I think part of it was like I don't know what else to do, like it would be nice to take time off or it'd be nice to process, but I don't know how to ask that. You know work never said like, hey, are you actually okay? Like maybe you should take some time, like that was never offered. And then even the idea of flexibility, like this was pre, was it pre? Yeah, pre-covid, but still this yeah idea of flexibility.
Speaker 2:But I in the early sort of months I was struggling with insomnia, so I was turning out to work as like an absolute zombie and really not being productive, like it was in no one's best interest for me to be there. I wasn't really making any money for them. So I'm like that's where these conversations checking in, like acknowledging you know I'm actually not going to be productive for a few months or whatever, but if you support me, we can move through this quicker. And as a particularly grim piece of context is the job that I was working at when dad died was the office of the chief coroner. So I went back to work and I was dealing with death every day and I don't know how I did it and no one thought, oh, maybe this is not a good idea.
Speaker 1:They know that your dad had died, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I took time off, I don't remember how much, but at some point I think I just sort of said like, look, I'm flying home. My memory's really fuzzy around that which is.
Speaker 1:I need a break.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, when I got that message from my sister, I think I don't know what I did. I must have messaged and just said, like look, I'm not. I think I don't know what I did. I must have messaged and just said, like, look, I'm not coming into work I don't know for how long. And then, yeah, eventually went back but didn't really have a lot of supports and we were having issues within the team anyway. Like it was sort of a new team that was set up. There's like seven or eight of us and we were all kind of struggling with just the mental load and dealing with traumatic subject matter every day. So we were trying to suggest, you know, ways that could help us be better at it. We were trying to make suggestions and no one was really listening to those. So eventually we all just left because nothing changed.
Speaker 1:And because of your work ethic, because of your desire to just continue to push forward. You weren't thinking about you. You were thinking about the good of the team. As you said, there were issues with the team, so I imagine you were probably thinking, oh well, I've got to support the job and this is what I'm getting paid to do, so I have to do this. And you weren't prioritizing you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was sort of a lesson that I came across slightly later on was kind of that wake-up call. What you were saying earlier about like your health is more important than the job. So, post-covid, going back to work, back to the office, I struggled with anxiety and it kind of hit a wall and I ended up having about three weeks of medical leave and that was a little bit of a turning point for me, sort of taking a step outside the workplace because it becomes a bit of an echo chamber and you see everyone else dealing with it so you assume that you're supposed to be okay as well. But, yeah, taking that step out, going to visit family, and I was kind of embarrassed about it, like how do I tell people that I'm, you know, I'm only like 26, 27 and I'm like medical, like stress, leave from work, like how do I tell that to people?
Speaker 2:And my auntie said, you know, when I sort of explained what I was up to and she was like, well, of course you need time out, like your job is really stressful, and it was like realizing I'd been so kind of stuck in the job. Having an external perspective on what I did with my time every day was what I really needed. And then her having you know, her saying like, like your health is always going to be more important, you can get another job, and really feeling that for the first time was a bit of yeah, that was definitely a wake up call. But yeah, I probably should have stopped sooner than I did. But that's where I kind of came up against like who am I and what do I do? If I'm not a lawyer, what are the other options? So I kind of pushed through.
Speaker 1:Was it that conversation with your aunt that led you to leave the last job, the last lawyer job that you had, or did that happen after?
Speaker 2:This was. It was probably about 18 months.
Speaker 1:When did your dad pass?
Speaker 2:January 2019.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you walked away from being a lawyer. At what point?
Speaker 2:Oh, this is where my brain doesn't work with numbers, so it was two and a half years ago. What are we now?
Speaker 1:We're August of 24. So early 2022.
Speaker 2:Start of 2022. Yeah, but it gets a bit complicated with all the job changes that I've had along the way. My third job, which is the one that I was working when I had this conversation with my aunt- Okay. Anxiety post-COVID. I was doing criminal defense, so you know I'm a sucker for punishment really so we all yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that was when I had that time off and had that perspective and actually in that job I think it was November of that year stuff happened at work and I quit without a plan for the first time and I thought this is when I take a break, this is, you know, this feels right. And then I got this job offer in Wellington and it was. I should have taken a break then, but because it was a really interesting area of law and it was quite niche, I'm like we'll give this a go and I did, yeah, and I did joke to people at the time like if this doesn't work, maybe I shouldn't be a lawyer because I was moving around so much. So I was in that last job for a year, but I mean, to be honest, I wasn't well functioning for that whole year and just more traumatic work didn't help at all.
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Speaker 1:If you haven't already checked out OurDeadDadscom, you should take a look fora couple of reasons. First, because there are a lot of really cool features to check out, including some interactive sections for the listeners, but also because Dotted Avenue built this website. They work exclusively within Squarespace, who is the hosting company of our website, and customize your website exactly the way you want it, and then, when it's done, you'll. And now back to the show. Now, obviously, by this point, this was your fourth job and your dad passed, or your second job, so we can't necessarily blame the job for not checking in with you at that point.
Speaker 1:It is unfortunate that your previous job, the second job, the one that you had when your dad passed, did not check in with you more, and I think that's something that I have talked with multiple people about, at least in this country, and it's, I don't want to say, refreshing, but not surprising to see. That's the case everywhere. How jobs you know. I hate to say that jobs don't care, but I don't think they do. To say that jobs don't care, but I don't think they do. And look, it's not their position to care about the mental health of their employees, though it should be, because for a lot of jobs, when we are performing tasks every day for them, I would hope that a lot of companies would want to make sure that the mental health and mental well-being of their employees is in a good place and when there comes a time that it's not that they provide the tools to help get the better.
Speaker 1:I don't know what bereavement leave is like in New Zealand. Here, generally it's three to five days, and that's for a parent or a sibling. It's three to five days and that's for a parent or a sibling. Usually it decreases if it's less, and I didn't really give it a lot of thought three and a half years ago when my dad passed through the course of this podcast. It has come up multiple times and I have thought about it. What a shit show that this country allows three days.
Speaker 1:Generally, again, we can say some places are five, some places you get up to a week, but three to five days for bereavement, to do everything to grieve the loss of your parent or your sibling, to organize the funeral, to have the funeral and then to go back to work. So generally, within, mostly no more than a week, and I know that a lot of jobs will allow their employees to take off more time if they need to, but at a certain point you're expected to get back to work, focus and just put your head down and move forward. But, holy shit, how can you possibly within even if we're going to call it a week back to a place where you previously? Now you knew that your dad was sick, so you had the knowledge that this was coming.
Speaker 1:But, what if it had happened suddenly? Whether it happened suddenly or whether it didn't, this is a major loss and obviously for some people they may not have as close of a relationship as you and your dad did. But whether they did or they didn't, it is still a loss that needs to be processed, needs to be grieved, not brushed under the rug. Within a week maximum, you go back to work and you're barely able to function. You're coming off of a funeral and you just buried one of the two people who's responsible for your existence. But no, go back to work and just focus.
Speaker 1:I don't understand. If I live to be a thousand, I will never understand how we as a society locally, nationally, globally do this. I understand in a lot of ways because the world is a much bigger place than our world. You and I are two of 8 billion people on this planet, our world. You and I are two of 8 billion people on this planet and the huge majority of the world had no clue what you went through when your dad died and had no clue what I went through when my dad died, or anybody else for that matter. They don't care, because businesses have to go on. Life has to go on. The world is.
Speaker 1:We know we're in a rocket ship and we're throttling at incredible speeds and everything is just going to keep moving forward, whether we do or not, but mental health is not given the focus and the attention and the emphasis that it truly deserves.
Speaker 1:And I don't know. I mean I guess maybe in huge corporations, where there are people that are making six and seven and eight figures, there are plenty of people who are going to continue to do that work when somebody needs to take a break and they're just not going to care. I don't know. Again, I hate to generalize because I know that not every company is like that, but I really do believe that in this country, and clearly in your country, in this world as because I've spoken to people in england, I've spoken to people in australia, I've spoken to people in canada, so I've already interviewed people in five or six countries, and it is the same everywhere we're not focused on our own mental well-being, which is since our jobs are not focused on it, I believe even more. That's why we have to be focused on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in New Zealand it's three days and I've, like, I've had these conversations with my sister and I continue to be outraged by it to anyone that will listen because, as you said, it just makes no sense. Even if it was a week's not enough, like that's not enough to do anything, and I think we had dad wanted to be cremated, so that actually gave us more time to do like funeral planning and stuff, and I think it was sort of almost over a week later that we did like the service and everything. But that meant we were able to be more intentional about it. There was more space between the loss itself and then having to get into planning mode, and it meant that it was a service that, like you know, actually mental locked, rather than just whatever the funeral director does, like ticking the boxes. You know, like I went through photos and I put together like music and stuff that he used to listen to, which also that's kind of something that I would recommend to other people, because now I have a Spotify playlist of some of his favorite songs that we had at the service, which is lovely that I can just put that on and I had capacity for whatever reason. I was like I volunteer, I'm doing this and doing all the photos, but yeah, if you've got only three days, you don't have the space to do any of that.
Speaker 2:But, and I think, because this annoys me so much, I'm like, how would you get businesses to listen? And I'm like, well, actually, an employee coming back to work who's still grieving is not going to be productive. So actually, in terms of money, you know you don't as a business. Surely you should be, you should care about this, even if you don't care about them as a person, which obviously you still should. But like, if you only see them as a money-making machine, then you want them to be productive. So if you're not supporting their grief and mental health, they're not being productive and they're not earning you money. And I still, I just can't get my head around why they don't even seem to see it on that level. And I also think you know there's, in New Zealand at least, there's like health and safety laws and so they exist here too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like, surely that applies to mental health. There's been a couple of times where I'm like you know, could I pursue this? Do I actually feel like my employer is breaching health and safety standards for the way that we're being treated and not being supported, like in a combination of the work we were doing and not being supported as well as just then, of course?
Speaker 1:there's also right. But then there's the thought of if you were to pursue something because you feel like you're either being treated unfairly or you feel that you are being put in a unstable or an unsafe situation.
Speaker 1:I mean you're I guess the the definition of unsafe, or whatever word you want to use, can be subjective. Because you're a lawyer, you're not working in a manufacturing facility where, if you're not focused on the machines that you're working on, you could potentially be risking your safety and your life and somebody else's. But, at the same time, even working as a lawyer, it doesn't have to be working in a production facility. You're still working on things that are incredibly important to the task that you're doing and if you screw up, then your mistakes are going to have repercussions on the clients that you're working for, the firm that you're working for and, ultimately, if you screw up big enough, they're going to say sorry, you got to go because we relied on you and you let us down and we can't have this. And they don't necessarily want to hear do you know what I've been dealing with? No, generally, even if they do know, they don't want to know, they don't want excuses.
Speaker 1:A lot of companies are not going to say, yeah, we get it, your dad passed and you were dealing with that. But you know what? We have a law firm here to run and we have things to take care of and we need people who are focused and who are dedicated, and it's all about work, and maybe that's why you were burying yourself in your job, because you, like most of us, have the mentality of well, I need to do this because I'm getting paid for this and my job is counting on me, and blah, blah, blah. What a fucking joke. We worry about our jobs counting on us, but we're not worrying about our families counting on us. We do for a very short time and then it's all right.
Speaker 1:Well, I have to go back to work, because that's just what has been ingrained in us and that is what has been driven into our skulls for our entire work, life, existence. And I understand the work has to be done. The world is going to keep turning, whether we're doing it or not. But, holy shit, when in this world are we going to start focusing on the mental health of the people that work for us? I don't understand that. And again, I'm not trying to generalize and saying every company, every business, every firm sucks at this, because not all of them do. I have had personal experiences where other people that I've worked with have experienced loss and my bosses have been phenomenal about saying take as much time as you need, don't worry, we will figure it out while you're gone, when you're ready to come back.
Speaker 1:That does happen in a lot of companies and I also know that it doesn't happen in a lot of companies and of course, I know that people who are listening may think that I'm trying to generalize and could be screaming at the phone or the radio in their car, whatever they're listening on and saying that's not true, that's not every company. Again, I'm not saying it's every company. Generally, at a certain point, the expectation is figure your shit out, because we need you to do this.
Speaker 1:They may not say it that way, but that's what's still going on. I get how that led to your burnout.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's such a strong link there and I think I mean I feel like it's just going to continue to get worse until we do something about it. Just like everything, but like on a societal level, the chronic stress and the burnout, and then the fact that experiences like grief and the mental health issues all feed into that. So if you're not addressing any of those things, it's all just going to continue flowing on. Chronic stress is going to get even worse, and so many people are probably already chronically stressed without realizing it, which is why it's been so important to me to kind of learn what I went through and understand more of the physical, like the nervous system level stuff, what I was going through and how bad it actually was.
Speaker 1:You know something that I've been thinking about for the last several minutes between what you've done in the last couple of years, since you walked away from your last job as a lawyer, doing your podcast, all the travels, all the life experience that you've had in the last couple of years your sister working in this field, in the mental health field I wonder if there's and I'm not trying to realign your life here in a couple of minute conversations but I wonder if there is an opportunity for the two of you to maybe work together and come and again I hesitate to say this because I'm not trying to throw you into a 90 hour a week new adventure but depending on your desire, her desire to change the things that you both know you would love to see changed, look, things have bigger, things have started with a lot less, and I wonder if it was something that you wanted to do, if you were looking for that next thing to do after your current contract ends.
Speaker 1:And if you decide you want to go back into the law field or the justice field, look, there's a lot of justice that needs to be done and I wonder if you can initiate some change, some really meaningful change, and if not on a global or national or a state level, change just for a few people at a time? I mean, when I started this podcast, I wasn't looking to have 10 million listeners by the end of the first month. I said from the beginning I just had a desire to help people, and if I can help one person at a time, then I think that I'm affecting change. Do you think that there might be an opportunity for you and your sister to say, hey, what can we do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've talked about this. So I love that you've brought it up, because we're on a yeah, on a similar way we've talked about and she's sort of started doing I think she's done a couple of like workshops and stuff locally where she lives in New Zealand. But I do feel like sort of recently, the last few months, the universe has kind of come and tapped me on the shoulder again and being like hey, are you ready for the next thing? Like I, I've got some ideas, which is pretty exciting. So, like the idea of speaking and sharing my story is weirdly appealing. Public speaking doesn't usually appeal to people, but it keeps kind of coming back into my brain. So I'm like, okay, maybe we'll follow this thread and see what happens.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to throw this out there. You have a podcast. You're sort of already a public speaker, know?
Speaker 2:yeah, who knew? Yeah, that definitely helped. I'm like, oh, yeah, I've had some practice at this, maybe it gives me a bit of credibility, but that's where I'm sort of also trying to educate myself through some science in there, so if I'm actually speaking to a wider audience, I can ground it in some, you know, some generally applicable stuff, rather than just yarning about my own life. But, yeah, my sister and I have definitely talked about what that could look like and I think that's part of maybe what's calling me back to New Zealand again, trusting the universe that maybe things will unfold as they need to, and that's where my support system is. But also, yeah, doing workshops or speaking or whatever that could look like with her. And actually in my current role, yeah, I've been thinking more about the idea of how I can merge my experiences and my what I'm passionate about with work. Some kind of the idea of trauma, informed justice, really resonates. I'm not quite sure what it'll look like yet, but pulling together, yeah, that all the ideas that, all the ways that trauma can affect people and then how that plays out in the justice system. So I'm like, actually maybe I can do this in my personal life with speaking in workshops and also maybe professionally as well. And, um, yeah, I've had going back.
Speaker 2:Touch on something you said earlier is realizing through like the first couple of years of grief, I sort of say that I was under like my grief cloud, like it all felt kind of dark and gloomy and I didn't know how I was going to get out of that.
Speaker 2:But then slowly realizing that, you know, family and friends noticed that I disappeared and that I no longer had capacity to show up for them, which I hadn't really realized, and being like, oh, people actually care, people want me in their lives.
Speaker 2:And I've had some really lovely conversations with a couple of good friends recently since I've been away and I've been really amazing. They've apologized, which seems crazy to me because they're like I'm sorry that I wasn't a better friend. I was like you were, you did everything you could and you're still here supporting me. And one of my friends also thought about the idea of on the podcast or whether it's like a workshop thing actually for my age and younger. Having that conversation about how do you support friends from my perspective and then, with my friends who have been through it, sharing experiences in that way also feels really interesting. So I feel like there's all these sort of threads that I want to follow back in new zealand which all kind of leads to, yeah, more education, more awareness I know that you're not heading back to new zealand, at least for long term, until for almost a year.
Speaker 1:I think you said your contract ends next june, but I'm already feeling like at some point we may have to have a follow-up conversation to see where, almost like a part two An accountability, maybe An accountability conversation, yeah, and I think we all need to hold ourselves accountable for the things that we want to do, for the things that we set out to do.
Speaker 1:When you started your podcast, when I started my podcast, I don't necessarily think that we had we may have had intentions of changing the world. I don't know if we had real, like realistic, expectations that we were going to change the world.
Speaker 1:But look unless if you have an eight or nine or 10 figure bank account and unless you have public figure name recognition. You're not going to change the world overnight. Not to, you know, rain on anyone else. But like the Kardashians, they are public figures. They do so much to help the world. And as much as I give my wife grief constantly for watching what's the show Keeping Up with the Kardashians, she's got it on and I say, oh, you're watching your smut again. And I joke with her because sometimes I sit there and I watch it with her and I know that I give her a hard time. But I also know that they are all doing amazing things to help the world. But yes, of course they have the name recognition now, but they also worked up to get to the point where they are and I'm glad that they're using their platform and their name recognition to affect change for so many people positive change.
Speaker 1:That doesn't mean just because nobody outside of our circles knows who the hell you or I are, it doesn't mean that we can't make change happen as well. I mean, you're doing it with your podcast, I'm doing it with my podcast. It's going to continue. They're both going to continue to grow and people are going to see what we're doing with our platforms and hopefully, change is going to start to happen on a bigger scale. If we want it to, if you decide you don't want it to, or if I decide I don't want to do this at some point, then we can walk away and we can do something else. There's no law that says you have to keep doing this for the rest of your life or that I have to. I mean right now. I have to say I'm so passionate about doing this that I can't imagine not doing it. But also, a year ago I couldn't imagine being a podcaster. And now I am.
Speaker 1:So you have to kind of take things, I think, with a grain of salt and see where they lead you, which is why you're doing what you're doing. You're going to finish out your contract. You're going back to New Zealand in three months, so maybe that will start to give you an opportunity to lay some groundwork for when you get back there next summer Well, actually I was going to say next summer, but for you'll be next winter in time for my yeah it's time for your summer, but well, june is your winter, right in new zealand yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I head back in november and I've got contract work which is remote, through until next june and then potentially expanding that oh, so you're going to be doing contract work in like when you get back to new zealand in november.
Speaker 1:You're going to be doing contract work in New like when you get back to New Zealand in November.
Speaker 2:you're staying there. Yeah, Okay, I thought you were.
Speaker 1:I thought you were going home for a little while and then going back to where you are now.
Speaker 2:No, I haven't really thought beyond just getting home. For New Zealand summer I was very focused on getting some sunshine, but then, knowing that I had the same contract is going to continue until June and then possibly we can extend that and that's only part-time, so it does give me space to figure out, you know, growing the podcast and maybe doing speaking and bringing all those things in once I get home. So that's why I don't know what my plan is, because I'm waiting to see what New Zealand might bring well, look, I think it's great that you're getting back to not only getting back to New Zealand, but that.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I think it's great that you're getting back to not only getting back to New Zealand, but that you're going to be staying there. I didn't realize in the beginning that you weren't going to be. I thought it was just going back for a visit. I'm actually happy to hear that you're going to be staying there because, yeah, now maybe you can kind of reset some roots and at least for a little while Again, you grew up in New Zealand, new England sorry, I'm thinking the United States. You grew up in New Zealand, you had your life and your roots there and you walked away from it to pursue what you're doing right now. But that doesn't mean you can't reestablish roots and just give yourself the space to figure out what you want to do and also realize that this is a long journey and there's still going to be grieving to be done.
Speaker 2:The grieving never stops.
Speaker 1:I've figured that out. You figure that out. You have to give yourself space to grieve whatever needs to be grieved, whether it's your dad, whether it's your past life of work, whether it's living as a nomad for the last year and a half, whatever it is. You have to give yourself space to process everything. There are good and bad sides to everything. Just because you're going to be finishing up with this doesn't mean you can't go back to it eventually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I know how to do it now. I know how it feels, I know how much money I kind of need to survive. But I think, yeah, realizing that for kind of whatever the next level has in store for me, like missing my community and missing my people, and realizing like I'm so looking forward to having more of these conversations and even more kind of like healing conversations, and that's why I feel so lucky that I have friends that are willing to kind of jump in there and talk about it and and be supportive for whatever it is that you decide you're going to do exactly, and I think that's helped me kind of continue to unpack the grief like, as you said, it's going to be a.
Speaker 2:It's a lifelong thing. You know you still carry it. It changes sort of shape and form every day. Sometimes it's heavier than others, but having those people that are there with you to have those conversations when you need to and reflect back on it, yeah, definitely looking forward to being back, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Now I know what it's about, but a lot of people may not, so why don't you talk a little bit about your podcast?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. I started my podcast called Yarns for the Soul Two years ago. It was sort of the first year of burnout healing. I was like what am I doing with my life? And initially I wanted to write a book but I was like that requires a lot of time and commitment so I dialed it back to a podcast somehow.
Speaker 1:oh, so there's plans for a book.
Speaker 2:I have visions. I've always loved, love writing and I'm a words person. But I was like, actually I don't have energy for like work or anything, let alone trying to sit down and write a book so right now you're using your words for a podcast yeah all right and again, I think it's all.
Speaker 2:It's kind of following how it's meant to be and I think in my big grand vision like if people listen to the podcast and I grow that then maybe one day when I write my book, people will want to buy the book because they already know who I am so right.
Speaker 1:How did you come up with the name for it?
Speaker 2:it was lots of. I think I knew quite early on how I wanted it to feel and it was sort of inspired by those like deep chats that I have with close friends, that kind of go in all different directions and it turns into a bit of therapy. And then there's dark, some dark humor and sarcasm and then sort of all over the place, but it's like just a really kind of nourishing chat, like over a cup of tea or coffee, and I'm like and you know, I'm like maybe I'm biased, but I'm like I think I have these amazing conversations with friends. What if I can create a podcast that feels like that, but talking about things that we don't talk enough about, going into the taboo sort of places, because that can be really healing and then learning about other people by them sharing their stories, right? I knew how I wanted it to feel and then had to try and come up with a name that reflected that and also a name that wasn't already taken. So I had lots of these really good ideas and then would search on Spotify and it was already taken. So sort of trial and error and then realizing I now know that the word yarn isn't universal, so I've had to explain what that means to people. It's quite a kiwi thing but it kind of just encapsulates generally a slightly longer chat, like it's conversational, but in my head it often goes in different directions, there's different tangents. Like you could say to someone like you know, I was just having a yarn with so and so, but then we also have the phrase shan, so if it's a shit yarn, you'd say like, oh, he was just spinning a shan, so it's kiwi language for you.
Speaker 2:But then once I started it, like, yeah, the first episodes were people that I knew and had connected with, people that I thought were doing you know, all these awesome things and had stories to share. But it sort of evolved as I kept doing it and then as I get more confident and then connecting with people who I don't know, which is sort of like next level up, and, yeah, realizing that like my values for the podcast is connection, curiosity and compassion, and it kind of just fell into place one day and I'm like you know what, if we actually take a minute to be curious about other people rather than judging them, and connect with other people through that storytelling, then maybe we can approach people with compassion, because everyone's got stories to share. We don't know what people have been through, and if you actually pay attention and talk about some of the harder things, then you might learn. You know, learn more about yourself or life, or you find people that have been through something similar to you and I've had a couple of guests share their stories and it's been so powerful because they've reflected and said they wanted to share because when they went looking for help they couldn't find anyone that looked like them and so they wanted to share.
Speaker 2:Because when they went looking for help they couldn't find anyone that looked like them and so they wanted to share their story on the podcast so that they could be that for someone else. So I've had these moments where I'm like, oh, that feels quite powerful and wasn't necessarily what I had intended, but it feels really cool to be the one that kind of created that space. But then I also realized because, like it sort of felt quite easy once I figured out all the technology stuff and then realized like I used to be paid to interview people for a living. This is why I can do this. Yeah, transferable skills exactly transferable skills.
Speaker 1:I mean, look, I've never been a public speaker, or I mean, i've've had to be the one giving speeches and talking a lot to people in my work, because being a manager or a team leader, you have to talk to your people all the time. But I didn't really know how that was going to transfer into podcasting. I have listened to several of your episodes, the most recent one I listened to a couple of days ago in the gym, healing and Finding your Sparkle. I think it was.
Speaker 1:The Burnout Coach, Sarah I can't remember if Sarah's last name was mentioned, but I know she's a burnout coach and it was a great episode. And there have been other episodes, like you mentioned, with the sarcasm, the dark humor. I think that's why part of why I've enjoyed listening to your podcast so much is because I am all about the sarcasm and the dark humor. I mean, if anybody has listened to the first three episodes of my podcast, which are me and then interviewing my three brothers and then interviewing my three friends, we're all about the dark humor and the sarcasm and all of my guests have added to that as well, and so that's a part of why I love yours, but also just listening to the topics, because they bring so much value yeah, it's bizarre because I'm like this kind of comes naturally.
Speaker 2:I'm the type of person I prefer deep chats rather than surface level how's your day, how's the weather. So this kind of satisfies that curiosity within myself and being able to ask, being like in control of the questioning. So if someone says something I'm like, oh, that's really cool, we'll go on a tangent over here for a while because I'm curious to learn more, right, and then kind of assuming that like if I want to know, then hopefully listeners also want to know. But, yeah, realizing that for some reason there is that drive inside me to have these conversations which makes me the right person to do it, which has been a process of like accepting that. But you said it's interesting that the dark humor and the sarcasm is something that I got from my dad, so it's been really interesting.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you that question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember growing up and he, funnily enough, he often said like you should be a lawyer. So maybe it was like this self-fulfilling thing that I just did that. But he was always really sarcastic and then eventually I got to an age where I could give it back and I would always. I knew exactly what he meant, but I would intentionally take it the wrong way and it was just being a bit of a tool and I think he might have regretted it at some points.
Speaker 2:When I was doing that to him, he was like oh, maybe I shouldn't have taught her that oh, you think you might have been pushing a little too far there were times where I'm like, okay, maybe this was the time to take it seriously and not be sarcastic, but I was also like it's kind of your fault, because this is your sense of humor that I've inherited. Yeah, but it's been. Yeah, it's like noticing those things that he gave me that have kind of become tools like part of who I am, but also tools that I've used to kind of carry on after he's gone, where, like actually he gave me everything I needed to be able to get through, including the humor and the sarcasm.
Speaker 1:I love that, and now you're helping other people I hope so. It's the mission have you listened to your own podcast? I think you are thank you again.
Speaker 2:It's like reminding yourself, like if only one or two people are listening, if they get something from it, then that's still.
Speaker 1:You're still achieving that yeah, again, affecting change doesn't have to be changing the entire world.
Speaker 1:You can start with a very small corner of the world and until we are world-renowned podcasters, which will happen someday hopefully. Until that happens, we're changing a little bit at a time. I frequently say on my intro and my outro we're changing the world one damaged soul at a time. I do believe that's the pace which, for now, is going to happen and, hopefully, whether I do. You know 20 episodes. Well, I'm going to do a little bit more, because I've already done more than 20 interviews.
Speaker 1:But whether I do, yeah, I mean whether I do this for, you know, six months or 10 years or longer, my mission will remain the same to affect change one person at a time, and hopefully at least you, at least the one person that I'm talking to in each interview. Hopefully I'm helping to change on a little bit more of a scale for those who are listening, cause eventually I'll have as I frequently joked about having more than 12 listeners, but hopefully that will continue to grow for both of us and we can affect all the change that we want. It's just a matter of who wants to hear our message, and I do believe that your message is a very valuable one. I love that you have these conversations and I hope that you continue doing it, because I'm going to continue to listen and, as I said earlier, I'm going to be on your podcast at some point soon. Well, by the time this episode drops, I will probably have all the episode with me on.
Speaker 1:Your show will probably have already dropped. If anybody wants to listen to it, go to ourdeaddadscom. There's the tab that shows as featured on its other podcasts that I have interviewed with and by that point I will have already been on Yarns for the Soul. And if you are not aware of Nicole's podcast if you either haven't listened to it, didn't know existed I highly recommend that you check it out because Yarns for the Soul is an amazing show. It is going to make you laugh. You'll probably get a little bit emotional. Sometimes you might cry a little bit and if Nicole cries, you can cry with her and you going to just like on this podcast. Experience dark humor, experience sarcasm, because I think the world should be fueled by sarcasm and dark humor.
Speaker 2:Not everybody agrees with that, but I really think it should because it's something that helps us all yeah, exactly, oh, I so appreciate that and I think think that's why I've connected with kind of your mission and your why behind the podcast is because it's very similar to mine and having these conversations on a topic that we don't often speak about enough, that isn't well understood, and we need to keep having these conversations. So I'm so grateful that you gave me this space to share my story as well. It is an honor to have you here. I'm so grateful that you gave me this space to share my story as well.
Speaker 1:It is an honor to have you here. I'm so grateful for your time and willingness to share, because, not just talking about the podcast, but also talking about your journey through grief, your journey through life, which has been not to say that you haven't had a good life it sounds like you've had a wonderful life but also just the five years working as a lawyer were grating on you. Those years seem like they really wore you down. They wore you out almost, and you decided to walk away from it, which is admirable. Some people are going to say, as you've said.
Speaker 1:Some people are going to say well, why do you feel like you're burnt out? You're so young. Why aren't you focused on this or that? Who gives a shit what anybody says? You need to focus on you. I can't, because if you're so busy being focused on everyone else and a job, then you're losing focus of yourself. You're losing focus of the life that you're trying to lead, the life that you're trying to build. And eventually, someday, if you do decide to get married, if you have kids, then you'll have to make that a priority too. Look, if you are not happy with the way things are, take stock in what's actually going on in your life and, if you're not happy with it, make a change, whether it's a small change, a job change or a sweeping lifestyle change, like you did.
Speaker 1:You went from being a lawyer to being a nomad, and you I don't want to speak for you, but you seem like you are happier, probably than you've ever been, and I know that you have said you're going back home to New Zealand in three months and you're going to see what you can reestablish there, and that doesn't mean that you can't leave and go somewhere else and do something else. It doesn't mean that you can't do something there, but you walked away from a career that could have been huge and could have been amazing and probably could have also killed you. And you're 31 years old it's not like you've been working in this field for 30 or 40 years. You were able to recognize that you were not in a good situation at a young enough age to completely just flip the table over and change everything, and that's a very powerful message.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm now realizing that I am grateful for that. I mean, obviously don't want to have been through it, but it's happened. So it's like you're in charge of your perspective and the decisions that you make moving forward. It's like being handed a reality that you didn't want, but then you choose what to do from there and realizing that all the stuff that I've now learned, I am actually very grateful for. And having that at a relatively young age, I'm like cool. So the next 30 years is just going to keep getting better.
Speaker 1:Hopefully that's the mission. I never enjoy seeing the traumatic things that some folks have to go through Losing your dad, losing well, not losing, but walking away from a career because it burned you out, because it stressed you out because your physical health, your mental health, was suffering so much that you had no choice but to abandon it.
Speaker 1:Look where you are now. Look at the things that you have done in the last couple of years. You have realigned yourself physically and mentally. You're doing a podcast where you're helping other people and now you're going to go home and you're going to figure out what the next big thing is.
Speaker 2:I think it's. I'm still figuring out how to share my story in a concise way and the way that people will get the most value from it, because there's been so many things that I'm like. Well, I kind of just trusted the process, which is not necessarily the most helpful advice to other people, but that's kind of what really needed to happen is realizing when you're coming from a place of like rock bottom, you kind of realize the only thing you have left is to trust that it can get better and lean into that, and it did.
Speaker 1:Look, what works for you and what works for me isn't going to work for everybody. Every answer to a question or to a problem is not a universal response. It doesn't have to be as long as it works for you. Just because it doesn't work for somebody else, you're not going. You're not walking anybody else's journey. You're walking your journey. So you have to do what works best for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I love that you're doing that. I love that you are going to continue to rebuild and plan out your life and make changes. I love that you're planning on potentially writing a book, and I definitely think that we should continue to stay in touch, as we have been, and I'm going to continue listening to your show. I think that maybe there is potential to have a follow-up episode in a year or so and see where you are at this point, what your next big thing is, and we can talk about how you've continued on your grief journey. We can talk about how you're continuing to help change the lives of so many others.
Speaker 2:And also when you.
Speaker 1:What's that?
Speaker 2:I said thank you, like I so appreciate it and it's amazing having it reflected back. You know, you kind of get used to sharing your story and then when other people reflect it back and they're like you've done so much, like you're doing so well, you're like, yeah, no, I am like pat yourself on the shoulder.
Speaker 1:You are and you should pat yourself on the shoulder, on the back, and you absolutely. I've also been guilty of not being able to accept praise and to not be able to be my own best critic. I'm frequently my own worst critic. I think we all are but being able to recognize that you are affecting change, that you are doing things that are going to help other people, that's incredible and I hope that you do decide no pressure, obviously, but I do hope that you decide to write the book, because I would love to read that and if and when you do it, I will be able to feature the book on my website as well yes, one day, well, as my energy starts to come back, we'll do it, and then and I get to have another conversation with you in the near future on my podcast and see where that leads us.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, and I think I love the idea of some accountability in the future absolutely, I'm super excited about that.
Speaker 1:And again, for anybody who may not remember what I said before or wasn't paying attention fell asleep playing with your cat. Whatever you're doing, yarns for the soul where? What listening platforms is your?
Speaker 2:podcast, all good platforms.
Speaker 1:My chosen one is spotify there you go, spotify anywhere you want to listen, search for yarns for the soul, listen to nicole. It's going to change your life. It's a great podcast and it's going to be even better because I'm going to be on it soon and again. By the time this episode drops, I will have probably already been on and the episode will already drop. Not that I'm trying to, you know, toot my own horn or anything like that, but no, seriously, I do listen to the podcast. I think you'll enjoy it as well. So, everybody, listen to Yarns for the Soul, listen to Nicole, and I think at this point, there's only one last thing to do as far as you and I are concerned for today, and that is to go to random question time.
Speaker 2:We're going to have a little bit of fun, oh yeah oh yeah, this is I don't.
Speaker 1:I wasn't sure if I told you about this, but this is the last part of every interview I always end by asking everybody a whole bunch of random questions. I've got a big Excel spreadsheet and I shuffle it every time and it just spits questions out at me. It's a fun way to end the interview and talk about things that are a little bit lighter, because we've already talked about a thing, a lot of things, that were pretty heavy, so we're just gonna have some fun for a few minutes what do you think?
Speaker 2:okay, my pressure.
Speaker 1:I should have got another coffee, but we're here, it's fine that's okay, it's only going to be a few minutes, so hopefully this will make you laugh and re-energize you. You might not even need the coffee. Yeah exactly here we go. What is your favorite word?
Speaker 2:Oh, why is it such a hard question? I'm a words person. That's probably why it's so hard. Currently I'm just going to go with jazzy because that's what's speaking to me, Like saying, oh, that's a bit jazzy. It could be sarcastic, or it could not be sarcastic, depending on the day. Okay, I like that. Who has it easier? Men or women? Men, I could give you lots of reasons, but they would take another hour.
Speaker 2:Give us the number one reason having experienced life as a woman, it's hard to kind of put into words a lot of the micro kind of aggressions and the micro sexism that adds up over time, that shapes the way that you have to then move through the world.
Speaker 1:Different and I think again, this is your opinion, these are your answers, so we're not trying to. You know, this isn't a test or anything, so your answers are the correct answers okay, would you?
Speaker 2:ever skydive yes, I've tried to twice and it's been cancelled because of the weather oh, all right, so hopefully the third time would be a charm yeah, exactly where did you?
Speaker 1:we already know the answer to this where did you grow up? These are just totally random. I don't control what questions it's asking me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, small town, new zealand, at the bottom of the south island, in the middle of nowhere middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how many people lived in your town oh, I don't know.
Speaker 2:See, my brain doesn't work with numbers. So these are the kind of facts that I don't retain but it was small. It was a very small town we had two high schools, a couple supermarkets so, not so small. We got mcdonald's when I was in high school about that big onward and upward there.
Speaker 1:Nice anyway, when you get, when you get a mcdonald's, you're on the map.
Speaker 2:You're winning. Yeah, we've got all the fast food chains, so that's all you need.
Speaker 1:I love it. What is your favorite body part?
Speaker 2:I don't know if I have a favorite. Do I need to answer?
Speaker 1:No, you don't need to. If the answer is you don't have one, that's okay too. I can't control what Excel is telling me to do.
Speaker 2:Maybe teeth, because I like food, but I also have a sweet tooth, which is a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you and me both. My friend, what is your favorite board game?
Speaker 2:I've always loved Cluedo, which probably speaks to the lawyer in me.
Speaker 1:Okay, Do you sleep with any stuffed animals?
Speaker 2:Not anymore. I used to have a polar bear.
Speaker 1:Polar bears are the best. They're so cute. I know they can eat us in about three seconds, but they're so cute especially in stuffed animal form.
Speaker 2:I mean, this one never did so, it was fine.
Speaker 1:That's true, you're still here. So clearly he was a friendly polar bear.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, here's a good question for you.
Speaker 2:At what age.
Speaker 1:Would you like to retire?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I sort of already slightly semi-retired because I only work part-time, but I do feel like that's part of what my grief journey has taught me is that you know there's no point putting off all the things you want to do in your life until you retire. You should incorporate that into the way that you live rather than just waiting for an age.
Speaker 1:That's a great answer. What motivates you the most?
Speaker 2:Depending on the day, usually snacks.
Speaker 1:This isn't a question on the page, but what's your favorite snack?
Speaker 2:Oh, I love salt and vinegar chips. It's another thing I got from my dad. It was favorite flavor or it's something sweet like gummy lollies. But New Zealand has really good chocolate as well that I miss, so there's a few options there if we ever get to new zealand or if you ever find your way to the united states.
Speaker 1:Uh, either I'm gonna have to get some chocolate from there, or, if you ever come here, I might have to have you smuggle some chocolate on the plane, and I will gladly pay you for that yeah, I am a huge fan of chocolate. It's my one, one of my, aside from my wife and my cat. It's one of my favorite things in the world.
Speaker 2:Top three.
Speaker 1:Definitely top three. Definitely yeah. Three what never fails to make you laugh.
Speaker 2:Oh, I like puns and dead jokes.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love a good pun. Sometimes I laugh at my own dead jokes, even if no one else does.
Speaker 1:Okay, which coworker did you learn the most from?
Speaker 2:I mean there's been quite a few because I keep moving jobs there's probably a leader in my first job that I really admired his approach to the work and the approach to criminal justice and that definitely rubbed off on me Nice yeah.
Speaker 1:Who is your best friend?
Speaker 2:Do I have to pick just one?
Speaker 1:You don't? Yeah, I guess if you have multiple and you pick just one, the other ones are going to give you a lot of shit afterwards.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably my best friend is Amanda. This is the one that got married in France last year. That sort of sparked off my whole travels, and we're weirdly similar, we're both weirdos, which is great. Everybody needs a good weirdo maybe that's why we've connected so well yeah what was your last impulse buy?
Speaker 2:oh, impulse buy. I think while I've been traveling I have to be quite careful because I don't have heaps of money, so there's not too anything. Everything's sort of well thought out. But I guess flights might kind of fit into that, because I'm like yeah cool, we're going to italy, let's buy a flight so it was planned to some extent, or the impulse came first, and then you plan later well, all right, I think that qualifies, even if it's trouble.
Speaker 1:I think travel is a great impulse buy yeah what does a person need to be happy? There's a really good question for you.
Speaker 2:The first thing that came to mind was self-awareness, but then part of me thinks you'd be happier if you didn't have that, because you'd just be ignorant of everything that's going on around you.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think you could be self-aware and be aware of a lot of other things Like self-aware is not an all-inclusive.
Speaker 2:Just because you're self-aware doesn't mean you're completely ignoring the rest of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if you're self-aware, you kind of know what can make you happy and you can go after it Exactly. Oh, here's an interesting question, because we did not grow up in the same country, so I'm curious to see what this one is. What was your favorite childhood TV show?
Speaker 2:Oh, what did I watch? I did watch a bit of TV. I loved Yu-Gi-Oh comes to mind, weirdly, or actually, no, probably Pokemon. We'll go with Pokemon. I was a nerd. I still am.
Speaker 1:My friend Danielle, who listens to the podcast a lot. She is a huge Pokemon fan. She has Pokemon Go on her phone, always like that, so when she hears this, she's going to love that answer.
Speaker 2:I sort of phased out a little bit. I had a handful of like Pokemon cards but I went to such a small like primary school that there weren't really anyone to like trade with. There was like maybe two other kids that had cards. But I still have those cards somewhere at home. I've kept them.
Speaker 1:Hopefully nobody's gotten rid of them while you've been away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, surely not. Like they might be worth money one day, or I'll turn them into art, who knows might be worth money one day, or I'll turn them into art. Who knows, either way that you'll have?
Speaker 1:gotten your use out of them. Yeah, love that. How do you usually answer the telephone? I don't. What do you mean? You don't. You don't talk on the phone.
Speaker 2:I don't like talking on the phone. It's one of those. I think it's a it's definitely an anxiety thing, but I think it's also a millennial thing that we just don't answer the phone. So most people know that if they want to talk to me, you message first and then you like pre-arrange rather than like cold calling, and then if you cold call I'm gonna think something's wrong or someone's died, which is, you know, probably also a trauma response. So most people who know me well message ahead of time. Otherwise, or if it's a number I don't know, they can leave a message if it's important enough, and I'll Google the number.
Speaker 1:How often do you floss?
Speaker 2:Two or three times a week. Okay, I had to get better at it after lots of dentist bills with the sweet tooth, yeah.
Speaker 1:I will throw a little not really an advertisement, but I'll throw this out there. After my. I have I've tried to take care of my teeth. I've never had the best look. But after my about a year ago I had to have like a deep periodontal cleaning, because that's what happens when you get to be 300 years old. But the dentist had highly recommended that I get a like a water flosser. But the dentist had highly recommended that I get a water flosser and I will say I didn't do it after that cleaning, but I did it after the most recent one. That night I ordered one on Amazon and got it the next day and I've been using it religiously since Almost every day. I used it twice a day, like in the morning and the evening.
Speaker 1:Some days, I only do it once a day. But a few months after a cleaning, but you know, a few months after a cleaning, when you can like feel the plaque building up again, you like, you can't see the spaces in between your teeth and you're like, ah, damn.
Speaker 1:And I mean it's been, I think, three months since the last cleaning and I feel like my teeth feel and look like they did the day after I had the cleaning and I love it and I'm really hoping that when I have my next dentist appointment in a couple of months I'm going to get a good report card and they're going to say that it's making a difference, because I don't want to, you know, lose my teeth or anything like that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I haven't lost any and my hopefully my teeth are great. Obviously, I've had cavities and stuff, but you gotta, this is a message to everybody. Oral hygiene is very important. You have to take care of your teeth because if you don't, they're going to lead to so many other issues and don't be hundreds of years old like me and have teeth issues.
Speaker 1:This is a life hack Get a water flosser. Yeah, exactly A little life hack Get a water flosser. I mean the one that we got. It wasn't that expensive. I think it was $40. It wasn't terrible. My wife and I both use it, and I mean she, my wife, also has the best frigging teeth of anybody that I have literally ever met in my life. She's 51 years old. She has never had a single cavity in her life. What it's absurd. It's truly absurd. I don't get it. And I've had tons of dental issues. All right. Next question, Let me get back to how did I get off of?
Speaker 2:that screen.
Speaker 1:Okay, here we go what is your middle name? Shanae?
Speaker 2:yeah, I like that yeah, I don't quite know where my parents got it from, they just liked it. But occasionally if I want to mess with people, I say it's shanae, because I just find that funny. And actually when I was getting admitted to the bar in New Zealand, you sort of have the whole ceremony and you wear the wig and gown and then you become a real lawyer, but you have to have another lawyer admit you speak on your behalf and we were sitting there and then he was like, oh wait, like what's your full name? And I was feeling really nervous and I told him my middle name was Shanaynay, just to mess with him to see. And then I was like, oh no, I'm just kidding, it's Shanay. But then that made him nervous because I thought it'd be kind of funny if he did say it. It's probably not the wisest idea to get my name wrong in the ceremony, but I thought it was funny. And then he was just as nervous as me because he thought he was was going to get it wrong, that's funny.
Speaker 1:Last question, I'll give you two questions. Have you ever slapped anyone in the face?
Speaker 2:No, not yet.
Speaker 1:There's still time Not yet You've still got time. All right. Last question how would you like strangers to remember you?
Speaker 2:I would like people to remember my vibe and energy, I guess Just being a kind person person, and then maybe they learn something from me okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a great way to want to be remembered. Yeah, nicole, thank you so much for this entire conversation. I know that we've gone way over our intended time. When you put two podcasters together, they can't shut up, and I'm really glad that we did this. I'm so excited to be on your show. We are going to have that interview in about a week and again, yarns for the Soul. Everybody needs to listen to it. That's another great podcast. You're really going to enjoy it. You're going to also enjoy the conversations, the dark humor, the sarcasm. Thank you so much for your time, thank you for your willingness to share your story today, and I really do hope that at some point in the future, we can have, as you called it, an accountability call and just stay in touch and let's just keep doing this, even if we have multiple calls on each other's podcasts. I think it would be great for both of us and for everybody who's listening.
Speaker 1:Hopefully they won't get sick of us by then.
Speaker 2:Surely not. Thank you so much for your time, nick, and yeah, really excited for our next conversation.
Speaker 1:I've said many times during the workday of my full-time job that we can write down a plan at the beginning of the day, but that plan usually gets put into the shredder within an hour because we get nothing but curve balls thrown at us. Sometimes the same is true with life. Nicole was on the verge of professional burnout, was getting very little satisfaction in her chosen profession and learned through the time that she shared with her dad near the end of his life that time is too precious to waste and sometimes you need to put your plan into the shredder and make a new one. I'm so happy that Nicole was able to stop by and share all of her stories with us. Please check out her podcast called Yarns for the Soul. As we said in the interview, I will be on her show soon and if you go to search for her podcast, you may not find my interview with her just yet because we only recorded the interview for her show about a week ago. Sometimes delays are inevitable, but our interview will drop soon. Until then, you can listen to my interview with her and check out the rest of her podcast as well, if you have a story of grief and loss to share and might want to be considered as a future guest on Our Dead Dads. Go to OurDeadDadscom, go to the Contact Us link and then select Be a Guest. Fill out the form, send it in and you just might be able to tell your story and carry on this mission of helping ourselves and helping so many others.
Speaker 1:Again, there are no rules to navigating grief and there's no timeline for doing it either. Everybody needs to go at their own pace, but the most important part is taking the very first step. Whether you want to tell your own story or you just want to listen to others tell their stories, it's so important to understand that no one is alone in grief or should ever feel like they don't have someone who will talk to them or listen to them. Here at Our Dead Dads, within the safe space of this community, you always have both. Here at Our Dead Dads, within the safe space of this community, you always have both.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening, and join me again next week when I'm joined by Kyle Jetzel, who comes to the show with a suitcase full of stories. He's going to talk about his relationship with his dad and losing him, and he will also talk about losing his wife, shelly a few years ago and what it has been like raising their six children without his partner by his side. I'm not sure that I've seen as much positivity on this show as I saw with Kyle. He is as free with the smiles as he is with the emotion, and there's going to be plenty of both during his interview. Make sure you're following Our Dead Dads on your favorite podcast streaming platform, because you will not want to miss this episode or any other upcoming episode. This is Our Dead Dads, where we're changing the world one damaged soul at a time. See you next time.